To think it’s so wrong that if you have money you can jump NHS waiting lists?

[ImaHogg]

I have some gynae issues. I had a scan in September 2020 and a telephone consultation with a gynaecologist. I was told that I need a hysteroscopy with a biopsy and to remove some polyps.
Obviously due to Covid I, alongside so many others am now on a waiting list. I (and my gp) have chased many times but just get told they have absolutely no idea when my procedure will be.
I am getting problems from the issues I have and have had enough so rang my local private hospital to ask if they do this procedure (can not really afford to go private but I am getting desperate and wanted to know how much it may be). I was told they don’t do this procedure at this hospital but there may be an ‘alternative’! They would talk to the gynaecologist and get back to me.
They rung back to say they had spoken with the gynaecologist and he would be happy for me to have a consultation at the private hospital (£150) then I would need an ultra sound scan (I would have to have this done at the private hospital even though I have a copy of the NHS one from September, same gynaecologist), then he would be able to do the hysteroscopy but at my local NHS hospital - wtf!!
So basically for a fee of £2000 I can skip the NHS waiting list, skip the luxury surroundings of the private hospital and have the same procedure at the same NHS hospital that I have currently been on a 8 month waiting list.
So if you have money you can push back NHS waiting lists even further by flashing the cash!

I think consultants have to do 8/11 of work in the NHS and 3/11 can be private.
It was 30 years ago anyway.
It's the same in most countries.

Perhaps Cuba is different.

@Joeblack066

We have waited 10 years for my daughter to see a psychiatrist, to no avail. I have used all my savings and she starts treatment as soon as her blood tests are back, following a diagnosis in under 2 weeks. I did what I had to do for my daughter and would do it again.

10 years???? I’m sorry but I can’t believe this is right. We know waiting lists are long but 10 years is unbelievable. Sounds more like someone didn’t put her name in the system several times......

DS2 had an op years ago. We'd taken it private, but it ended up being done at the NHS hospital. Fine with us, but I was embarrassed that he was then prioritised whilst on the ward - so he had his OP first etc. It was obvious something was going on, as we had a nurse from the private hospital (same grounds) with us, handling everything. There was a delay with something and she kicked up a stink .
We only took it private as we had medical cover through DH's work and when we initially saw the GP she said to make use of it otherwise he'd be waiting a while for the procedure

@TheYearOfSmallThings

YANBU, OP. I think a lot of people don't understand that you would be having the actual surgery as an NHS patient, on an NHS theatre list, with an NHS pre-assessment, recovering in an NHS bed on an NHS ward. You would get your NHS surgery much quicker by seeing the surgeon as a private patient for a couple of outpatient appointments, scans etc. He/she would then refer you onto the same NHS list that you might have spent a year getting onto as an NHS patient.

However in terms of NHS consultants also doing private work, they work sessions so clinics and lists should be matched, and lists should not be longer because a consultant works more days private. The NHS sessions will go to another NHS consultant.

@TheYearOfSmallThings

Love your username by the way. :)

You’ve got it the wrong way around. She is paying to rent out additional resources. It won’t take away from NHS lists, as explained by others up thread.

@MintyMabel

Surely it's a catch 22 though as if NHS wasn't renting out theatres then NHS ops would be being done in that time?

NHS may not be able to afford the staff to have every theatre going full pelt all the time.

Yes-you'd hope that this was the case wouldn't you?

This was happening at least 15 years ago. My parents had BUPA so I got to have a private appointment with a dermatologist, who then put me on her NHS list for treatment. Was very clear the ongoing treatment was NHS and not paid for by BUPA. My friend had to wait on the NHS waiting list for about a year to get to see the consultant and have the same treatment.

Having different access to health because of money is wrong.
Going to the dentist and being told that your child would wait at least 24 months to get the same treatment that can be provided by same clinic/same dentist the day after if paying £3000 is wrong. And obviously affects 'the queue'. There is a massive incentive for doctors to spend less and less time with NHS patient. They only do it for how much it benefits them.

The problems you raise are issues with the NHS, not issues with private healthcare.

Money buys you more privileges in all aspects of life. People who have it shouldn’t be blamed for using that when it doesn’t actually do anything to disadvantage those who don’t have it. It doesn’t affect the queue, those slots are not available for NHS patients. Dentists allocate their time based on how much the NHS pay them. There are very few NHS only dentists because the NHS has continually underfunded dentists for decades. Private money subsidises NHS dental care.

If the government choose to tax me more so they can provide the same healthcare as is available privately, then I’m happy with that. But until they do, if I need private healthcare then I will use it.

Perhaps the time has cone to privatise healthcare and just use NHS for urgent A&E type needs.

£2000 is too much just for a consultation and a scan.

It must include the private operating fee. Private op just happens to be done in the NHS facilities.

@hypie has described the alternative which is private consult & diagnostics then join routine NHS waiting list earlier than if you had waited to have NHS diagnostics. This pathway didn't used to exist but it changed in the early 2000s.

Some hospitals have separate private lists, others have a hybrid system where an NHS list will have a couple of private slots on it. The patients on these are inevitably disappointed as they don't get done first and have to wait etc.

If the NHS hospital doesn't have a private ward the food and nursing care etc. are all the same even if you are paying. Again often a source of complaint.

The real issue is that the NHS is underfunded and for as long as the Tories remain in power this will be the case.

I'm an NHS doctor. Me doing private work would make fuck all difference to the NHS - I'd just lose some of my private time. The NHS contracts me for 42hours a week (and I actually work a fuck tonne more than that). They don't own my soul.

Surely it's a catch 22 though as if NHS wasn't renting out theatres then NHS ops would be being done in that time?

Thus shortening the list & private patients coming ioff the list wouldalsobe shortening the list?

But where would the private patients be treated if not in those theatres? Private hospitals dont have all the same facilities as nhs hence using same hospital/theatre.

Lots of people, including my family, have private insurance and help pay for our family to get those private slots in part because we can afford not to burden the NHS. The items that aren’t used are then likely reused in subsequent NHS operations. Equally, sometimes private hospitals have NHS patients for certain cases, with no cost to the patient themselves. NHS hospitals generate revenue through private use too, which is used to ensure care is free for all who need it. Healthcare choice has benefits for everyone.

If there was no private treatment, then all those currently going private would have to use the NHS, so whilst there would be more consultants treating people, they'd also be far more people to treat.

However, we currently have over 5m people waiting for treatment, some will die, others will have to have emergency procedures as their condition worsens.

When we last had these sorts of waiting lists in the early 2000's (after 18 years of the tories) the Lab Govt poured billions into the NHS, even then it took years to make a difference but it did.

There seems to be no such plan to increase NHS funding.

There is a massive incentive for doctors to spend less and less time with NHS patient. They only do it for how much it benefits them.

I don't think that's fair to be honest. What Doctors do outside of their contracted NHS hours (which there are usually limits on, yet sadly doesn't account for the overtime usually done), is none of anyone's business and has no impact on care to NHS patients, if they wish to work privately then good for them. The issue is with underfunding of the health service, that's what leads to short appointments and long wait times, not what highly professional people do outside of their core job.

@Adventureswith

You’re not jumping anything - you’re going private. It’s nice to have the option isn’t it?

Thats RUBBISH! Of course she is jumping the NHS lists.

The procedure is ...the patient pays to see a consultant at a Private Hospital and often pays to have any tests privately.

Perfectly fine, the NHS consultant does out of hours work privately and tests done privately and quickly so he has all the paperwork to go ahead with any surgery.
Then the consultant will often bump that patient onto his NHS surgery lists in an NHS Hospital, ahead of those already waiting so NHS times become even longer. This is WRONG!
If you're private then you should stay private throughout not jump existing NHS queues.

The patients who are less adept (often the elderly), or simply don't have the money to queue jump, suffer even longer wait times.

This action would ONLY be ok if the Consultant was doing the surgery privately, at a weekend, using the NHS Hospital facilities on downtime. so hiring the space/facilities and benefitting the NHS with his out of hours work.

@MintyMabel

Having different access to health because of money is wrong. Going to the dentist and being told that your child would wait at least 24 months to get the same treatment that can be provided by same clinic/same dentist the day after if paying £3000 is wrong. And obviously affects 'the queue'. There is a massive incentive for doctors to spend less and less time with NHS patient. They only do it for how much it benefits them.

The problems you raise are issues with the NHS, not issues with private healthcare.

Money buys you more privileges in all aspects of life. People who have it shouldn’t be blamed for using that when it doesn’t actually do anything to disadvantage those who don’t have it. It doesn’t affect the queue, those slots are not available for NHS patients. Dentists allocate their time based on how much the NHS pay them. There are very few NHS only dentists because the NHS has continually underfunded dentists for decades. Private money subsidises NHS dental care.

If the government choose to tax me more so they can provide the same healthcare as is available privately, then I’m happy with that. But until they do, if I need private healthcare then I will use it.

I think I do understand the issue. The NHS is not cheaper than other systems that work better. Privatising does not seem to help and ideology has a profound impact on this. Accepting that having more money just gives you a better lifestyle does not mean (unless you want it to mean this) that it is right for every aspect of life. I have no problem with different incomes and what it can buy. I believe certain services should be accessible to everybody (those with and without money) at the same price. This is why taxes exist: to provide public goods, not to make money. There is an ideology behind what those public goods are and what they mean. Would you also consider it OK if the government decided to defend certain areas with different weapons or bunkers depending on your contribution to the system? Or to get better firefighters arriving in case of fire? Those going private are not 'helping' the community. They are helping themselves because they can and want to. i totally accept this is how it works here; it does not mean I think it is the best option, or that there are not different views on this. I strongly believe situations like the one explained about dentistry are wrong And I have paid private for my own child who was entitled to NHS treatment for a very serious problem but had to wait 2 years... so I paid the £3000 and got it start straight away. I don't think I am helping anybody's child on the NHS queue with my actions. Just contributing to making the private business of healthcare more profitable.

@Roboticcarrot

There is a massive incentive for doctors to spend less and less time with NHS patient. They only do it for how much it benefits them.

I don't think that's fair to be honest. What Doctors do outside of their contracted NHS hours (which there are usually limits on, yet sadly doesn't account for the overtime usually done), is none of anyone's business and has no impact on care to NHS patients, if they wish to work privately then good for them. The issue is with underfunding of the health service, that's what leads to short appointments and long wait times, not what highly professional people do outside of their core job.

This is not how it works! They decide to work much less for the NHS because it is not as profitable. I don't 'blame' individual doctors. It is the system we all contribute to. Doctors stay in the NHS because it brings other benefits to them but prefer the private clients. We can agree or disagree this is fair but it is quite something to state the hours you are putting on one side have no impact on the other. Or even more: those who believe they contribute to public services by going private!! It is madness.

I agree with you. NHS hospital, NHS consultant, but privately paid for so you can jump the queue is so wrong on so many levels.

@ linelgreen

I always thought the current healthcare arrangements were pretty much blended already. In other words tax payer funded fee free at point of use for most with an option to seek pay as you use private medical care. The current “blended” system is not totally paid for eg in dentistry most treatments require extra fees. Importantly one most note that a private pay as you use healthcare service may not be as comprehensive and wide ranging in terms of medical research innovation as a likely result of a for profit business model. The latter business model will possibly focus on parts of healthcare with most demand and return on investment to the detriment of rarer therefore less profitable treatments. Perhaps those with overseas healthcare experience in comparable advanced high income nations can provide examples of pros and cons. I suspect it’s preferable for an all inclusive tax payer funded system based on medical need than ability to pay depending on personal resources. Many may not see the benefits of reduced taxes(?) if the medical treatments should they be required is relatively less affordable. Healthcare is very expensive and that is just for the extensive professional training let alone treatments and medicine.

The thing I find a bit frustrating about this is that the Consultant is being paid the private fees to do the job on NHS premises, and potentially the anaesthetist. However, the scrub nurses, recovery nurses, ward nurses, domestics, radiographers, lab team - basically anyone else - are still NHS staff, getting their normal low pay, for also looking after a private patient.

Both my parents had cancer for the last years of their life and while the care they received was faultless, from the dealings I had then, and since, with my own (and friends and families) experiences there are so many incidences where the admin/mechanisms of the nhs seems quite inefficient in terms of time, money and communication.

I understand what you mean and think it's wrong. People see the consultant privately who then refers the patient back to him or herself in their NHS clinic but as the patient has already been seen, they enter the waiting list at that point, with no wait (like the patients who have had all their treatment on the NHS) for the initial consultation appointment or for any tests needed before being listed for surgery or the procedure. I see it regularly at work, particularly with the orthopaedic patients.

The public just seem to be of the opinion that a Labour Government will right all the inequities in the NHS... They won't!

Case in point is Labour giving GPs a vast salary increase for less work! Less hours, no more on calls, vastly more into their pensions and look where that's got us now!
GP's practically barring the doors against patients, locum doctors on call outs, problematic gatekeeper receptionists....and on and on.
GP's were once valued but now even A&E's have little good to say about them.

@Masterblasterjammin

The thing I find a bit frustrating about this is that the Consultant is being paid the private fees to do the job on NHS premises, and potentially the anaesthetist. However, the scrub nurses, recovery nurses, ward nurses, domestics, radiographers, lab team - basically anyone else - are still NHS staff, getting their normal low pay, for also looking after a private patient.

Would be good to hear from someone with more knowledge but doesn't the NHS hospital get a 'fee' for the private work that happens?

In the old days when I worked for the NHS we used to do private work for consultants and we and the hospital would get a fee for that from the consultant.

Actually I think the OP could be right about this. I think it is possible to get NHS treatment sooner by having a private consultation (instead of an NHS one) prior to the treatment.

Yep, I did it. There was a 3 month waiting list to see my Rheumatologist, so I used my work private medical insurance to get a private consultation and a diagnosis. Cut the wait from 3 months to 4 days to see him.

After the initial consultation, he flipped me to his NHS list to carry on seeing me. He saw me as an NHS patient 4 weeks later.

So yes, an initial private consultation jumped me right up the waiting list.

This is not how it works! They decide to work much less for the NHS because it is not as profitable. I don't 'blame' individual doctors. It is the system we all contribute to. Doctors stay in the NHS because it brings other benefits to them but prefer the private clients.We can agree or disagree this is fair but it is quite something to state the hours you are putting on one side have no impact on the other. Or even more: those who believe they contribute to public services by going private!! It is madness.

They don't just phone in and say oh hi NHS can't be arsed working for you today I'm doing my private work, NHS hours are squared away, and all that would happen if you banned people from having the choice to do both, would be more people would probably leave and go fully private, or abroad. I find it odd that people feel an ownership over those who work in the NHS.