Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Discussing Palestinian Oppression part 2

999 replies

Faffandahalf · 16/05/2021 09:28

Just starting another thread as the other one is full.

Please keep talking about Palestinian occupation and oppression.

Please follow Palestinian support groups like Friends of Al Aqsa and Mohammed el Kurd (an amazing Sheikh Jarrah citizen) on Twitter and Insta to get info from the ground. This will take you to other sources of infor coming out of Palestine.

Please keep Palestine part of the conversation and on social media so it’s not forgotten about.

Supporting Palestine is not anti Semitic
Criticising Israel is not anti Semitic.

As an aside I have not once seen the previous thread in active after page 1.
So MN have let the thread stand after numerous complaints of censorship but still odd that it never came up as active.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
joanneg36 · 18/05/2021 14:02

@GoingOnABarHunt Do you genuinely, really believe that the Israeli government is committing genocide? Genocide? i.e. you believe they are intentionally trying to murder every member of an entire ethnic group? Really?

GoingOnABarHunt · 18/05/2021 14:02

@joanneg36 the Palestinian population currently has rockets being fired at them by terrorists, what do you suggest they do?

GoingOnABarHunt · 18/05/2021 14:04

Genocide, the deliberate and systematic destruction of a group of people because of their ethnicity, nationality, religion, or race.

Yes, I absolutely do believe that the Israeli state is carrying out genocide.

joanneg36 · 18/05/2021 14:04

@goingonabarhunt - have answered this question upthread.

mowglika · 18/05/2021 14:06

@joanneg36

Who here has called for Israel to be wiped out? You are applying the language of Hamas to us, should I ascribe Netanyahus words to you? You are literally the only person who has discussed the wiping out of Israel seemingly in order that you can put those words in other peoples mouths.

I was answering your question as to why people might view the existence of Israel differently to other states - by virtue of the way it came about. I’m not really interested in how America came about it has no relevance in this discussion.

I do agree with a two state solution. I have categorically never called for the destruction of Israel, what purpose would it solve to create more casualties of war? Israelis are people too, with families and homes.

I agree with a solution where Israel shows it is serious by stopping its illegal activities, forgive me if I call a democratically elected sovereign state to higher standards than Hamas. Given the history, I expect that Israel should be the one to come forward and broker peace. I expect Israel to stop igniting trouble in order to continue land grab under cover of ‘defends’. None of this is controversial, it’s documented.

Menoismymate · 18/05/2021 14:07

@joanneg36 I honestly can’t be arsed with you today. But if that’s what you believe then you crack on.

Menoismymate · 18/05/2021 14:22

Oxfam and Save the Children are both running Gaza specific appeals to help the children and civilian in Gaza who continue to suffer with no cease fire in sight.
For anyone frustrated by the refusal of the Israeli government discuss a ceasefire, and by the mounting deaths of children in Gaza, donating to these charities will give the civilians there some much needed practical support.

joanneg36 · 18/05/2021 14:25

@Menoismymate Okay, fair enough. If you're going to be rude, I'll stop engaging with you directly.

But I will just note - again - that you have not explained why you hold Israel to a different standard, nor addressed my point that doing so is anti-semitic. How America came about has massive relevance to the discussion, because the discussion is about at what point 'facts on the ground' become relevant over 'X displaced Y's land Z many years ago'. This has happened in virtually every country that has been set up since the dawn of time, but it is only Israel that is hated as a result.

joanneg36 · 18/05/2021 14:26

And I am not the only person who has discussed the wiping out of Israel, you literally said on the previous page 'only a one-state solution is possible.' Glad to see you've now thought better of that remark.

joanneg36 · 18/05/2021 14:28

@GoingOnABarHunt what evidence do you have that Israel is attempting to wipe out the entire Palestinian population?

Note, I am not arguing with the fact that they are currently killing hundreds of Palestinians on a daily basis. But 'genocide' isn't a word to be thrown around, so I'm asking why you're using it specifically?

anemona · 18/05/2021 14:37

@Frazzledfranny

Do you support Hamas, or would you imagine a change in leadership is required there too?

I think your well aware that no one here supports Hamas. Your just baiting now.

You should leave the thread if you can’t support it instead of turning it in to a bun fight. These people do need help regardless if you dont think they do.

I was asking a question of someone who had just referred to Israel needing to make reparations and apologise but with no suggestion at all that anyone on the Palestinian side needed to apologise.

And yes, sure you'd like to bully me off the thread, but unfortunately for you, no-one made you Queen of the World.

You don't get to dictate where or what I post. People with different views to you are actually allowed to speak in the real world. Hmm

Frazzledfranny · 18/05/2021 14:38

It’s not antisemitic to critique the land grab by the Israeli state. No one has asked fir the destruction of Israel. Your the only person on this thread that is saying it. Why?

Posters just want Israel to stop advancing.

Many Jewish people have spoke out and made documentaries in protest against what Israel are doing.

Maybe you believe that Judaism is a nationality and that’s why you find it hard to not conflate the two. Many Jewish dont have that opinion.

Menoismymate · 18/05/2021 14:39

That’s a sh&t load of ‘aid’ money to be giving a modern, successful country... now we know why it really took the uS so long to appeal for a ceasefire. They’re paying for the Israeli bombs.

BBC
‘ US President Joe Biden is facing questions from some within his Democratic party about the amount of foreign aid America sends to Israel.

Senator Bernie Sanders has said: "We must take a hard look at nearly $4bn (£2.8bn) a year in military aid to Israel."

In 2020, the US gave $3.8bn worth of aid to Israel - part of a long-term yearly commitment made by the Obama administration, which will run until 2028.

The vast majority of this aid is for military assistance, according to the Congressional Research Service.

The money has helped Israel develop one of the most advanced militaries in the world.’

Frazzledfranny · 18/05/2021 14:39

How can people say ‘both sides are as bad as each other’..

Discussing Palestinian Oppression part 2
StoneofDestiny · 18/05/2021 14:47

A basic Human Right enshrined in law is the right to an education.

Note the dates of the destruction of schools long before the current situation

Is the Israel protecting its people? I think not..

More than 500 children were displaced in the West Bank and East Jerusalem in 2020 as over 5,200 expect their schools to be knocked down

Ramallah, 3 February - Over 840 structures in the West Bank have been torn down or seized by Israeli authorities in 2020, forcing at least 518 children and their families from their homes, Save the Children said today. This makes 2020 the worst year since 2016 for displaced Palestinian children in the West Bank.

Demolitions across the occupied territory have impacted more than 2,600 children in total. Families have lost homes and livelihoods, forcing them to seek shelter with friends or extended family, and to look for other means of income and build a new life. Their situation has been exacerbated by the economic impact of COVID-19 pandemic, Save the Children said.

The demolitions have disrupted every aspect of children’s lives over the past twelve months: their homes have been razed to the ground; vital infrastructure such as water and sanitation facilities have been destroyed; and schools are under a constant threat of demolition.

Between January and December, Israeli authorities demolished hundreds of structures including farming structures, tents, and caravans, driving some 1,000 people from their homes. In November alone, 73 people, including 41 children, were displaced after the largest demolition incident in four years.

Despite a promise by Israeli authorities to halt the demolition of homes during the COVID-19 outbreak, destruction continued. A halt on the demolition of inhabited homes in East Jerusalem announced on 1 October also did not hold, when the Israeli authorities tore down the home of a family of five in Sur Bahir in November.

Fareed*, who is in the fifth grade and lives in an agricultural community in the West Bank, constantly fears attacks on his home. He said, “We can’t leave our homes in the evenings, and can only stay close to home during the day. There’s a settlement nearby and on the main road the army and settlers are always coming and going. They gave demolition notices to a lot of the people living here. I felt ill and became tired [about that].”

In addition to children having lost their homes in 2020, there are currently 53 schools facing the risk of demolition across the West Bank and East Jerusalem. An estimated 5,250 children are at constant risk of seeing their school destroyed and losing out on an education, Save the Children said.

Only recently, a school with 50 children from two communities in Hebron received a demolition order with only 97 hours to appeal. The Umm Qussa school now faces the prospect of demolition if the Israeli Civil Administration goes ahead with the order.

Earlier in 2020, Israeli authorities dismantled a school under construction just south of Hebron.[3] Similar steps were taken in several other cases, including the confiscation of building material for the Ras Al Tin school in a Bedouin community east of Ramallah, allegedly for lacking building permits.

Diala* is in the sixth grade. She’s afraid that she might not be able to go to school anymore because of the military presence in her village: “Every day the Israeli army comes to the town. The other day, they came wanting to demolish our school, and I started to get scared.

“My hope is to become a teacher, but there aren’t many teachers here [without the school] so I’m afraid I won’t be able to become one.”

According to the UN, forced evictions as a result of demolitions are a key factor in the creation of a coercive environment and have a negative impact on human rights.[4]

Jason Lee, Save the Children’s Country Director in the occupied Palestinian territory, said, “The ongoing demolitions are making children and their families homeless, and they are leaving vital infrastructure in the West Bank in shambles. Children are paying the highest price. Tearing down a house, a school or other vital infrastructure, especially during a pandemic, destroys their right to an education, to have a home. It targets their future, their health, their safety and well-being.

“As an occupying power, Israel has the duty to protect the rights of children. We urge the Government of Israel to tear up all existing demolition orders for schools, homes and vital infrastructure, in line with its international obligations. Failing to do so will leave more children without a home or an education, adding to the impact the pandemic is already having on their lives.”

A representative of the Education Cluster, in which different organisations work together in the field of Education, said: “Schools are a lifeline for children and their families, particularly in the most vulnerable areas of the West Bank. Schools should never be a target. Should the demolition of these schools occur, it would be a major setback for these children that will be very hard to overcome. It would deprive children of an education and a chance of normality in a context where it’s most needed.”

anemona · 18/05/2021 14:47

@GoingOnABarHunt

Of course I don’t support Hamas, but I cannot stand when the Israeli State is held in higher regard whilst carrying out state terrorism and genocide.

I don’t think people are obsessed with Israel because it’s the Jewish State, the world is watching a genocide in real time and people around the globe are quite rightly up in arms about it. Social media has given a view like never before, not propaganda videos, but live links to locations in Israel and Gaza. Yesterday people in Tel Aviv were broadcasting going for brunch whilst people in Gaza were broadcasting videos of total destruction and lifeless bodies at their feet. Everyone had a vague idea of how unequal things were, but the stark difference has really shocked a lot of people, especially those who relied on the MSM for information. Would you prefer it if the world ignored the human rights violations? Turned a blind eye to the Israeli state breaking numerous international laws? Stayed quiet about the ethnic cleansing?

Palestinian people are the victims here.

I strongly suspect you don't follow many Israelis in Tel Aviv or elsewhere if you think they've been 'broadcasting going for brunch'.

My Twitter is full of people in Tel Aviv and across Israel posting pictures and videos of themselves in bomb shelters, in tears, one man taking shelter in a ditch with his baby son, by the side of a motorway he was driving on when a Hamas rocket appeared. Pictures of murdered Israeli children and adults, destroyed buildings and yet - amazingly - of shared peace protests, with Jews and Arabs together protesting for peace.

Does no-one on your social media ever show Israelis also suffering? Or Israeli Jews and Muslims standing together??

My social media is full of that.

Both sides are suffering. You should try following some Israelis.

StoneofDestiny · 18/05/2021 14:48

now we know why it really took the US so long to appeal for a ceasefire. They’re paying for the Israeli bombs

Yes, the are also blocking the United Nations getting a ceasefire.

StoneofDestiny · 18/05/2021 14:50

From The Times of Israel

NEW YORK — For the third time in a week, the US is blocking a joint statement from the UN Security Council calling for an immediate ceasefire between Israel and Hamas, two diplomats involved in the matter said Sunday.

The statement was introduced by Norway, Tunisia and China following an emergency session earlier in the day on the fighting in Gaza and generally criticizes both sides for the ongoing violence but makes no mention of Hamas rocket fire

mowglika · 18/05/2021 14:50

@joanneg36 was that comment about one state solution aimed at me? I did not say I wanted a one state solution, not sure where you saw that. Israel will never agree to a one state solution because they will be outnumbered by the Muslims. That’s not even on the table.

Again, the only one discussing ending Israel is you, to my mind to lend credence to your idea that people are speaking out against Israel because they are anti-semetic rather than just disgusted by the actions of a government who are hell bent on wiping out Palestine as a state. Whose own history as persecuted refugees was a few short decades ago.

anemona · 18/05/2021 14:55

If you're interested in finding out the Israeli Jewish perspective, @HenMazzig on Twitter is very informative and tweets (in English) in normal times about his experiences as a Mizrachi Jew living in Israel.

GoingOnABarHunt · 18/05/2021 14:55

Why are Palestinians such an inconvenience to the Israeli state? I think this must be a massive part of it - Israeli demographers have stated the need to “preserve a clear and undisputed Jewish majority among Israel’s total population”

jppi.org.il/uploads/Jewish_Demographic_Policies.pdf

Unfortunately, this means violating the human rights of many Israeli citizens as well as Palestinian people. For example, Israeli Jewish women of Ethiopian origin were given contraceptive injections every three months without their knowledge in order to keep their population down. Even after the revelation and forced stop of administration, Ethiopian Jews are still treated with discrimination in Israel and are regularly deported. Their ‘Jewishness’ is oftener debated by Rabbis, and they are seen as impure.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-gave-birth-control-to-ethiopian-jews-without-their-consent-8468800.html%3famp

The Israeli state continues to land grab and steal the homes of Palestinian people in order for settlers to have a home. Where do all the Palestinian people go? They need to go somewhere, and some would argue that if conditions are made so bad for them then they will leave in order to survive.

Palestinians in Gaza are currently living in conditions akin to an open air prison whilst having Israeli rockets rained down on them. Rockets are being aimed at schools where large numbers of homeless families are sheltering, as well as packed refugee camps. Hospitals are being bombed so people can’t receive medical treatment to save their lives, and roads leading to hospitals are destroyed so that ambulances can’t get in or out. There is no running water, the electricity has been cut and the crops have been bombed. The international media tower housing multiple news agencies reporting on the destruction has been bombed. Half of all Palestinian adolescents have suicidal thoughts. Generations of families have been wiped out. They have no defence against the Israeli state. I will repeat the definition of genocide again:

‘GENOCIDE - the deliberate and systematic destruction of a group of people because of their ethnicity, nationality, religion, or race.’

Frazzledfranny · 18/05/2021 14:55

naamod.org.uk/

www.ifnotnowmovement.org/

electronicintifada.net/people/jews-against-occupation

jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/to-end-the-violence-we-must-end-the-occupation/

jewishvoiceforpeace.org/israeli-palestinian-conflict-101/

www.greenleft.org.au/content/jews-against-occupation-time-impunity-israel-over

Maybe all these Jewish people against the occupation are antisemitic too.

And anemona I’m not trying to bully anyone of the thread I just wish you would allow people to discuss the travesty of what’s happening there - but you won’t.

Your bullying.

Ikeasucks · 18/05/2021 14:55

Nearly 2 full threads and only a small handful of people are commenting/arguing who have some connection or interest in Palestine/Israel while everyone else just stays clear. Surely everything that can be said has been said

joanneg36 · 18/05/2021 14:57

No @mowglika - it was aimed at @menoismymate - who if you go back to the previous page, you will see said that the only possible outcome now is a one-state solution.

If this was my 'Jewish oversensitivity', then I'm sure she'll be back any time now to explain why she believes in Israel's right to exist.

But telling me that no-one here is calling for the end of Israel is the very definition of gaslighting. It is literally written down on the previous page.

anemona · 18/05/2021 15:00

@Frazzledfranny

Astonishing, Jewish people are not a monolith and have a range of views. Just like Muslims do.

What was your point again? Do the links you included post pictures of Jews having brunch in Tel Aviv? Hmm

Nope, I'm still not going to be bullied off the thread. However hard you try.