To think you don’t go to University just for the University experience

[CovidSmart]

Many many discussions in our house on university atm.

Two dcs who are convinced (I imagine from what school is telling them) that what is important is to find the Uni where you will get the best experience. Somehow the rest doesn’t seem to matter as

• companies will train you
• you can do whatever you want after that as long as you have a degree/master.

I see university as a way to learn about a subject so you can work after so the subject is important (eg important to learn economic if you want to work in business related fields, engineering to be an engineer etc..).

Both dcs are so adamant I’m wrong that I’m starting to question myself. Not having the experience of the British system doesn’t help (went to uni and started to work in a different country).

Any experience?

Really great post @Justbeenjabbed
Sums it up well.

@Flowers500

It’s completely unfair to act like filtering by university is not the standard practice in recruitment. Standards in universities are very different, someone with a high 2:1 from Oxford is a completely different league to someone with a high 2:1 from an ex-poly. Getting into a really good uni is the next thing you can do to set yourself up for career success. There are maybe 8-10 unis in the UK that will open doors fairly automatically. Yes you still need great grades and to be a go-getter, with a good attitude. But it’s hard not to succeed with a good degree from Oxbridge/UCL/LSE/Imperial/Edinburgh etc.

And yea that is massively reflected in recruiting. Uni name is used as a shorthand for academic standards. Unless there is extenuating circumstances you wouldn’t expect to see someone who is Oxbridge material at (I don’t want to name a place). If it does happen then they’ll get a strong 1st and do a master’s somewhere else to prove their first uni was a fluke.

The narrative that uni name doesn’t matter hurts candidates a lot. If you want for example to be a City lawyer, History at one of the top unis means you’ll be interviewed if your application is good. While law at an ex-poly is unlikely to get you an interview, ans their entrance requirements might not be as high as the law firm’s A level requirements.

I'm not saying that it doesn't matter what university you attended. Clearly some universities are better than others - and I say that as an academic at a post 92 institution.

What I'm saying is that it is very simplistic to assume that all candidates from an elite university are a better calibre of those from other universities. You need to understand the factors that influence university choice.

High achieving students from widening participation group are significantly less likely to attend an elite university. It's important to understand why this is.

To see those trends perpetuated at employment level is somewhat disappointing but explains why social mobility has halted in the uk.

@Flowers500

Lots of students from underprivileged backgrounds see “law” at a third rate uni and think this will mean they’re in the door for a glittering life as a solicitor. They’d be much better off trying to get into most other subjects at a better uni. It’s heartbreaking to see them pursue the career for 4 years at uni, and be immediately passed over by someone with a general humanities degree from somewhere better. It’s bad career advice that they are getting.

It's not just about careers advice.

It's about what people think is a suitable route for them. This was the topic of my PhD. I looked at why high achievers from low socioeconomic backgrounds and first generation students tended to chose non elite universities despite getting the required entry requirements.

The most common reason was about fitting in - pretty much all of my research participants said ' people like me don't go to places like that'.
This needs to be tackled at university level.
It's far too simplistic to say that they should just choose a better university.

@DelBocaVista which is why it it can be used as a distinguishing factor when candidates all meet the required person specification.

I would never use it exclusively and assume 'they went to Durham, they must be good'. But where this is little to choose between candidates, their education can influence it. Otherwise, it would be irrelevant which university any of us went to, surely?

For what it's worth, none of my job descriptions require a certain level of education OR number of years' experience. The specification is that they can demonstrate they are able to do the role. But it would be disingenuous of me to say that other factors like education don't consciously, or even unconsciously, affect how we view candidates.

Lots of organisations are working towards fully blind recruitment, which I think can only be a good thing.

There are plenty of people who know how to play the game so the students who get to year 3/4 and then start to think about jobs are at a massive disadvantage compared to the ones who have been focused from the start.

@Dustyhedge, exactly that!

Regardless of the country you need to understand how the system works to make the best out of it.
My map was wrong so I’m happy that I asked so I can support dcs the best way possible.

I’m probably ambitious but my ambition for me and the dcs is to create the life you want. I think it just so happens that it’s easier to do that when you have a certain level of education but harder with less (with many caveats around that).

Years ago only the cleverest went to University, now it’s the same as your first holiday to Crete with your pals. I work with three under 24s in my team, two have a degree, one doesn’t. The one who doesn’t worked at all sorts before running his own pub. Covid stopped that. He’s also the best of the three (oh and got a mortgage in March). The other two are way behind. Young people really should be told that Uni is nit the be all and end all after leaving school/college.

@Flowers500, could i ask which Unis you would put in your top 8 ‘that open doors more easily’?

I’m assuming Oxford, Cambridge, durham, LSE and then?

[quote therearenogoodusernamesleft]@DelBocaVista which is why it it can be used as a distinguishing factor when candidates all meet the required person specification.

I would never use it exclusively and assume 'they went to Durham, they must be good'. But where this is little to choose between candidates, their education can influence it. Otherwise, it would be irrelevant which university any of us went to, surely?

For what it's worth, none of my job descriptions require a certain level of education OR number of years' experience. The specification is that they can demonstrate they are able to do the role. But it would be disingenuous of me to say that other factors like education don't consciously, or even unconsciously, affect how we view candidates.

Lots of organisations are working towards fully blind recruitment, which I think can only be a good thing. [/quote]
What you're describing is conscious and unconscious bias.

If you have two closely matched candidates and you are using university attended to make a final decision that is allowing your biases to influence your decision.

We know not all universities are the same but we would expect that to be demonstrated by a candidate - so someone from a top university should perform better, have greater and deeper knowledge. I would expect that to be demonstrated not implied.

The problem is, lots people just assume that graduates from a particular university are better. That's not always the case.

Blind applications should help eliminate these biases. I'm a huge advocate.

Years ago only the cleverest went to University,

Years ago only the most privileged went to university...... there fixed it for you!

I’ve already said my bit, but I just want to add something- it’s really important to know the individual before assuming that the top universities are best.

Case in point: my cousins.
Cousin A: Average ability, hard worker. Worked her socks off at A Level and got into Durham university on a challenging course. Had to work like stink, hardly any time for socialising and under constant anxiety as she was borderline 2:2 / 2:1. Confidence undermined, did not really enjoy uni. Scraped a 2:1, joined civil service in entry position and is fine but always seems to have inposter syndrome.

Cousin B: Also average ability, more laid back, Bs and Cs at A level. Went to Manchester Met to do similar course to cousin A. Loved it, great time at uni, was happy, worked hard played hard, got a 1st. Went on to do a Masters, then joined civil service fast stream. Flourishing.

Manchester Met hasn’t held back cousin B. In fact I think cousin A would have been better off there.

Better a 2:1 from a lower uni than a 2:2 from a higher, and better go somewhere where you will flourish and feel successful than somewhere where you will be fighting to keep up.

I’ve already said my bit, but I just want to add something- it’s really important to know the individual before assuming that the top universities are best.

Excellent point.
It's also important to look at the universities closely. Lots of the top universities are there because of their research reputation not because of the quality of their teaching or student support.

Often the lower ranked universities excel in those areas - hence many RG unis objections to the TEF! They also tend to invest an awful lot in their employability support and careers services which really can make a difference.

Each to their own but it does concern me when young people who are not academically driven or focused are encourage to sign up for student loans/tuition fees in excess of £60k to get the university experience 😱. It seems reckless and irresponsible to tell young people that they should unless they have academic aptitude and/or are willing to work hard to gain solid A level grades.

Far too many end up stuck in retail and admin because their primary reason for going to university was to get the experience. Definitely not a great use of £60k but also delaying the potential to work their way up in the jobs they do end up in.

With the cost of uni now - I would very much encourage my kids to think about the content of the course and their prospective career options - especially with the tough economic climate.

They would need to understand the cost of a masters or a second undergrad degree (if they find they need it for the career they want) and I would expect them to work a few years to save and fund at least part of it. They need to understand the opportunity cost - eg they could use some of that money for travelling or saving for house deposit.

If they are unsure - then I would encourage them to work for a while in different areas to clarify what they would want. They could always go to uni for first undergrad later.

@DelBocaVista, what is TEF?

[quote CovidSmart]**@DelBocaVista, what is TEF?[/quote]
Teaching Excellence Framework

It's a measure of teaching excellence where as the REF is research excellence. Employability and 'distance travelled' ( progress made by students while studying at that university) fed into the metrics used. Employability is my particular interest/expertise!

Universities were awarded gold,silver or bronze. It shouldn't be the only thing students look at but it can be an indication of how seriously a university priorities teaching. A number of RG universities didn't score too well.

However, it's not perfect. Some universities didn't engage in the process fully, there were debates over how it was measured etc but it's something worth looking at.

@Namenic

With the cost of uni now - I would very much encourage my kids to think about the content of the course and their prospective career options - especially with the tough economic climate.

They would need to understand the cost of a masters or a second undergrad degree (if they find they need it for the career they want) and I would expect them to work a few years to save and fund at least part of it. They need to understand the opportunity cost - eg they could use some of that money for travelling or saving for house deposit.

If they are unsure - then I would encourage them to work for a while in different areas to clarify what they would want. They could always go to uni for first undergrad later.

If they’re academic, smart, driven and interested in getting a strong graduate job they’re best to go to an excellent uni for a course that interests them, followed by a master’s in what they decide to work in. E.g. history at UCL followed by a master’s in economics/finance, or public policy, or the law GDL, or another area. You get a great general degree that means you can walk into any lower down grad job, plus a fab uni experience and some breathing space to decide your career. Then you have a loan for specialising, which gets you that much better grad job. Then you’re 25, highly employable, have a field that you can walk into at a good level and preferably also a lot of work experience. You’ll be on anything from 30k to 100 at 25, with a clear track to promotion.

Obviously this only applies to people who are very academic and driven. But parents misunderstanding the loans system is not helpful—if you use them right there is zero issue with having them. They’ll barely make a difference on mortgage applications, etc.

@ItsRainingTacos exactly!
University is academic. The majority of jobs do NOT require academic skills. Critical thinking and analysis is what every person should have. Not something special you learn in uni.

Also there’s a wide variance in jobs. @Dustyhedge first years crying about internships is probably for fields like investment banking which are very very competitive. Most grad schemes take a very small number (5-10) and a first year ‘spring week’ is your best chance of getting in. Otherwise competition gets much tougher with at least 4 rounds of interviews and a lot of tough technical questions.
But people don’t have to work in investment banking!

Grad schemes in general vary. For example audit at the big4 accounting firms take anybody from any uni with a 2:1 and a CV with decent extracurriculars. Lots of schemes are rolling basis and the people who get the job are simply those who got in the quickest and passed all the stages. So if you want ‘a’ job aim for something like this. Also firms directly hire graduates.

To break into something highly competitive however needs more planning and uni choice plays a role. I have friends earning 40-60K straight out of uni and they went into fields like tech and competitive finance fields.

So @CovidSmart what is your definition of a good job?As an engineer 40K may seem like a low salary. If you look at MN’s contant salary threads loads of people that it’s plenty and more than they’ll ever earn in their lives. For most of my friends they’ll be making double that by the time they’re 30...

It's If they’re academic, smart, driven and interested in getting a strong graduate job they’re best to go to an excellent uni for a course that interests them, followed by a master’s in what they decide to work in. E.g. history at UCL followed by a master’s in economics/finance, or public policy, or the law GDL, or another area. You get a great general degree that means you can walk into any lower down grad job, plus a fab uni experience and some breathing space to decide your career. Then you have a loan for specialising, which gets you that much better grad job. Then you’re 25, highly employable, have a field that you can walk into at a good level and preferably also a lot of work experience. You’ll be on anything from 30k to 100 at 25, with a clear track to promotion.

Obviously this only applies to people who are very academic and driven. But parents misunderstanding the loans system is not helpful—if you use them right there is zero issue with having them. They’ll barely make a difference on mortgage applications, etc.

I absolutely agree with this.

@TheLastLotus, my definition of a good job is one that allows you to live the life you want. For me it’s about choice.

How much you earn is all relative. £40k in london doesn’t mean the same thing than £40k in newcastle or Carlisle.
£40k when you do a job you only vaguely enjoy but requires you to work 50 hours a week isnt the same than £40k working in a job you love 3 days in the week etc etc...

And of course, it depends what you want from life. Your job will only be good enough depending on what your expenses are.
If you want to be able to jet around the world 3 times a year in luxury hotels, a good job will be one with a much higher salary than if you are happy with a much simpler life.

Are you children actually academic? Eg predicted As with relative ease or do they struggle and might scrap a c.

The best degree and the best university for them will entirely depend on how academic they are

But parents misunderstanding the loans system is not helpful—if you use them right there is zero issue with having them. They’ll barely make a difference on mortgage applications, etc.

@Flowers500, could you expand on that? I suspect I am one of those parents... (and so is dh)
How can you use those loans right (or wrong)?

of course if they are really really academic then they might end up in academia and we never earn a big salary despite having a highly prestigious job!

@Dishwashersaurous, both Dcs are academic enough.
Maybe not A* all the way but dc1 is currently aiming for AAA.
Dc2 harder to say (straight 7~8 across the board)

@Dishwashersaurous

of course if they are really really academic then they might end up in academia and we never earn a big salary despite having a highly prestigious job!

Haha yep academia isn’t renowned for that!