To think you don’t go to University just for the University experience

[CovidSmart]

Many many discussions in our house on university atm.

Two dcs who are convinced (I imagine from what school is telling them) that what is important is to find the Uni where you will get the best experience. Somehow the rest doesn’t seem to matter as

• companies will train you
• you can do whatever you want after that as long as you have a degree/master.

I see university as a way to learn about a subject so you can work after so the subject is important (eg important to learn economic if you want to work in business related fields, engineering to be an engineer etc..).

Both dcs are so adamant I’m wrong that I’m starting to question myself. Not having the experience of the British system doesn’t help (went to uni and started to work in a different country).

Any experience?

@DelBocaVista I don’t think our opinions are that different after all actually...

[quote TheLastLotus]@DelBocaVista there’s too much variance within degrees and industries to ‘blanket dismiss’ students from non-elite universities. The comparison is with regards to academic/red-brick subjects. In fact as I mentioned for some fields students from ‘non-elite’ unis will actually have an easier time getting a job. This doesn’t change the fact that a history degree from an academic university is worth more than one from a lower ranked university because the entry criteria for a lower ranked uni is lower - ergo someone from there is likely to be less academic. Of course this is again not a blanket statement as it’s perfectly possible for someone to have gotten great A-level grades but chosen a lower ranked uni for whatever reason but the academic standard of work expected varies.

Again as you are very qualified you probably know this - but any advice based on unis depends on the individual’s circumstances. Lower ranked unis having less access to top employers doesn’t mean that they have none at all. Equally for a lot of jobs emotional maturity and attitude are more important and the degree, an indicator of academic ability, is of zero significance. It’s just that going to a top uni allows you opportunities for all jobs, academic and /or otherwise. If you have the grades and the ability then it’s good to aim for one. But in terms of general applications - a candidate from a top uni with nothing else except grades will not be preferred over someone from a ‘less elite’ uni with work experience/extra activites.[/quote]
I do know this.
One of my specialisms is widening participation and social mobility. When I was working as a careers adviser I specifically worked on social mobility projects and with our WP team.

I know that universities are different and why they are different but I also know a lot about the career decision making behaviour of different groups which makes it a far more nuanced subject than most people realise.

Students from low socioeconomic backgrounds are two thirds less likely to attend an elite university even when they have the required entry requirements and We know that going to an elite university can enhance your employability prospects ..... this results in a lack of social mobility.

To tackle this we need to do three things. We need to look at why certain groups are less likely to apply to elite universities, we need to ensure careers teams at ALL universities are working with a wide range of employers and are ensuring their students are able to compete for top jobs and we need employers to be willing to work with a wide range of of universities.

@DelBocaVista, @TheLastLotus,
From my very outside perspective, it seems that you have a very similar outlook.

But your discussion was enlightening and I really enjoyed it. So thank you 🙏

Job hunting at the moment and and EVERY single job is look at is asking for a degree as a minimum, some say desirable but most it’s essential. And I have a English degree which really has nothing to do with my profession.
One advantage of having a degree that I’be discovered is that no one has every doubted my ‘ability’ for want of a better word. There’s an assumption that having a degree means I can do most things. Weird, but it’s the way it is.
And yes, of course it should be a good experience as well as a decent course. You want your DC to stick with it for starters, and they will probably make life long friends too.

I think last lotus made a good point that it might also depend on the subject and the job being applied for? (Eg city law grad scheme vs event management vs sound engineering?). Work-life balance sounds like it would be important to OPs DCs - appreciate that they might not know right now - but it might help for them to do a bit of research - finding out expected working hours, qualifications required for a few candidate jobs. it might give them some direction to apply for some summer intern schemes to try different things.

@DelBocaVista, @TheLastLotus,
From my very outside perspective, it seems that you have a very similar outlook.

I agree.
I just got a little tetchy at being told I didn't know what I was talking about when it's my job to know about this!

In all seriousness, I know choosing a university isn't easy. There are 185 institutions to choose from!
My advice is:
Choose a subject first. This is THE most important bit.

Think about what type of university experience you're after - campus, non campus, city, town, rural etc

Look at subject league tables not just overall - also look at students satisfaction and employability figure ( on a subject levels not just university level)

Make a short list and visit if possible- most universities will be resuming some on campus recruitment activity soon even if it's just campus tours

Attend open days - even if they're virtual and engage with the academics

I'd also look at how the university has dealt with this last year. If we end up with any type of restrictions again you want to know that your university is responsive and still delivered high quality teaching online ( not all did and some of the RG universities were not great at this)

Hope this helps :)

@MissConductUS

I think that ideally it's a bit of both. My DS has one year left in uni where he's studying finance and accounting. He already has a job offer for next spring as a result of an internship he just complete. So that's good, but he's also studied literature, computer science, history and taken some art classes.

Our DD is just finishing her first year at uni and doesn't really know what she wants to do at this point, which is fine with us. Part of the value of uni is to learn how to do research and think critically. I'm sure she'll find her spot eventually.

It may be different here. I'm in the US.

It’s different in the UK - if you’re studying for a degree, you only study that subject. So in a finance degree, you would only study finance.

Really interesting discussion. I think @DelBocaVista actually sums it up perfectly when she says 'we know going to an elite university can enhance your employability'. That's the point that most of us have been trying to make - going to a 'good' university is more important than the subject, and then we would factor in the right experience for the individual (campus or non-campus, big city or small town).

I think what @DelBocaVista is also arguing is that the world shouldn't work like that, and that social mobility is a real concern.

Again, I think the majority of us would agree, but the reality is that the status of a university becomes shorthand for prospective employers. And that's irrespective of how good the careers teams are, the individual candidates etc.

It's why we have uni league tables, after all - getting into university is a competitive process.

OP, you have engaged in this chat brilliantly and I think your kids are going to be well set for their careers! I wish my parents had understood more than their belief that a degree was a golden ticket.

Personally, I have had a good career but could have got to the same point without my degree. I have often resented my loan repayments coming out of my salary whilst watching my colleagues put the equivalent sum towards a house deposit. I was 31 when I paid off my student loan, and I feel like I'm still playing catch up. I think that these days, going to university needs to be a much more considered decision; at my (grammar) school, it was just a given that we'd all go.

That's the point that most of us have been trying to make - going to a 'good' university is more important than the subject

Subject should come first. If a student doesn't enjoy their subject and doesn't have an aptitude for it then they are less likely to perform well and more likely to drop out.

I think what @DelBocaVista is also arguing is that the world shouldn't work like that, and that social mobility is a real concern.

Again, I think the majority of us would agree, but the reality is that the status of a university becomes shorthand for prospective employers. And that's irrespective of how good the careers teams are, the individual candidates etc.

While we know that this is how the world has generally worked what I'm say is that this should be challenged. We shouldn't be accepting this as the status quo.
This is where careers services can help as part of their job is working with employers to demonstrate that their students can be just as much of an asset that those from more elite universities. There is progress being made.

However, this can make some people uncomfortable. Particularly on MN!! You just have to see the posts on contextual admissions to see how many people really don't support the reality of social mobility!!

Sorry but in most fairly decent academic jobs your uni is basically seen as shorthand for how smart you are, how driven and where you’re going to end up. We can talk for days about how unfair this is, but it’s true.

Surveys about student satisfaction, teaching quality etc are really not worth looking at. The LSE for example regularly does shit at that, doesn’t matter it’s still clealry way better than the lower down unis. It’s terrible careers advice to go to one of those instead, you’ll find yourself immediately at a disadvantage.

Anyone who has ever done a job interview will know what going to a great uni gets you. The interviewers will often say “oh you got a first from the LSE” look pleased and immediately take it as a given that you’re damn smart.

Subject is NOT the most important thing when applying. Yes you should like it, but typically there are a couple of overlapping subjects that you would enjoy. They might also have different entry criteria, so picking a 90% match that gets you into a great uni is better than picking a 100% match that gets you to somewhere second rate.

@DelBocaVista I admire your work and what you are doing to try to broaden access to careers but you’re presenting your views of how things SHOULD be as how things ARE. It’s great that careers teams try to narrow the gap between elite unis and other unis, but that gap is huge and it would require changing the mindset of every single employer and interviewer in the UK. I have been recruited, gone through competitive grad recruitment and recruited people. Careers advisors can do as much of a good job as they want but I don’t think it will ever change the basic outlook here.

A bit of both I should imagine.
I did my degree via the OU and have done well because of it, but obviously I missed out in other ways.

[quote Flowers500]@DelBocaVista I admire your work and what you are doing to try to broaden access to careers but you’re presenting your views of how things SHOULD be as how things ARE. It’s great that careers teams try to narrow the gap between elite unis and other unis, but that gap is huge and it would require changing the mindset of every single employer and interviewer in the UK. I have been recruited, gone through competitive grad recruitment and recruited people. Careers advisors can do as much of a good job as they want but I don’t think it will ever change the basic outlook here.[/quote]
I think I've made it clear that I understand how it works. I've also outlined how things are changing - whether you like it or not.

@Flowers500

Sorry but in most fairly decent academic jobs your uni is basically seen as shorthand for how smart you are, how driven and where you’re going to end up. We can talk for days about how unfair this is, but it’s true.

Surveys about student satisfaction, teaching quality etc are really not worth looking at. The LSE for example regularly does shit at that, doesn’t matter it’s still clealry way better than the lower down unis. It’s terrible careers advice to go to one of those instead, you’ll find yourself immediately at a disadvantage.

Anyone who has ever done a job interview will know what going to a great uni gets you. The interviewers will often say “oh you got a first from the LSE” look pleased and immediately take it as a given that you’re damn smart.

Subject is NOT the most important thing when applying. Yes you should like it, but typically there are a couple of overlapping subjects that you would enjoy. They might also have different entry criteria, so picking a 90% match that gets you into a great uni is better than picking a 100% match that gets you to somewhere second rate.

Out of interest....Where did you get your career guidance qualification?

Subject and university is important. It impacts on retention and attainment. Those are important to the individual and the university.

Some people on this thread are taking a very narrow view of graduate recruitment.
While some sectors and some employers still take a traditional view in terms of recruitment there are many, many graduate recruiters who don't.
The NHS is the 4th biggest graduate recruiter in the uk and Teach First and Aldi feature in the top 10. I know for a fact that these organisations have strong links to a wide range of universities.

The BBC's move to Salford has seen them develop closer relationships with local universities such as Salford, MMU and Huddersfield.

If you're interested in a career in logistics then Huddersfield is the preferred university.

It's

Posted too soon.....

It's a far more nuanced and complex picture than people realise.

Also, social mobility is a hot issue so even some of the more traditional recruiters are widening their recruitment pool.

University ‘elitism’ and social mobility are two different things.
If good unis have a mix of students then employers targeting them doesn’t matter .
Bear in mind that I’m not talking about Oxbridge/LSE. Plenty of good universities such as Lancaster, Bath and Birmingham not in the ‘Russell Group’ but known for academic standards. Nobody is saying that you have a choice of less than 10 unis (unlike in the US where the Ivy League seems to be worshipped).

The fact of the matter is not everyone is academically inclined. The result of the ‘everyone can do a degree’ is that every job now needs a degree , even ones like being a receptionist, which is frankly ridiculous!

My ideal system is that our school system is invested in more so that everyone who’s academically inclined regardless of background gets funnelled into academic subjects at uni. Everyone else can either do an apprenticeship, a vocational type degree/qualification, or get a job while they figure out what they want to do! With part time degrees and the OU a degree at any stage of life is possible.

What the current system does is force people to commit 3 years of their lives and significant expense to something that may or may not pay off dividend. But if it was the norm to do a degree once you have some life experience people would know what they want.

Also to add - if a job needs academic people then yes they will take people from academic unis. If the entry requirement for a degree is 2A levels/C’s and D’s (not sure about how points work) what proof is there that you can cope with a financial research job for instance?

However if a job doesn’t require it (like for example a Marketing grad scheme even at a top company) absolutely - grads from any university should be treated the same. A physics/literature degree from Cambridge doesn’t prove anything

This is where the nuance lies....

I’ll admit that most of my experience is in very academic jobs - requiring candidates to pass tough professional exams. Even the school leavers or apprentices taken in for these jobs while not having a degree have excellent GCSE/A-Level grades.

@DelBocaVista
it depends entirely on what kind of grad recruitment you are aiming for and what your salary expectations are. I completely agree with your point that if you’re aiming at a grad scheme at Aldi, becoming a teacher or a regional BBC office then yes of course the more vocational universities are good. They aim at getting their students into these kind of programmes which lead to jobs that will earn a salary and keep you reasonably comfortable.

That’s a whole other world away from having a high-paying and really interesting career in something like top-end banking, politics, major journalist, senior civil servant or City lawyer role where you earn great money and can easily end up part time on 40-50k.

If someone picks a uni on its employment and student satisfaction ratings with the understanding that they’ll be getting a grad scheme at Aldi, that’s great! However if they’re taking that over a prestigious university and thinking that is going to help walk them into a competitive career, that’s just not fair to mislead them like that.

University ‘elitism’ and social mobility are two different things.

They're inextricably linked though.

If good unis have a mix of students then employers targeting them doesn’t matter.
Bear in mind that I’m not talking aboutOxbridge/LSE. Plenty of good universities such as Lancaster, Bath and Birmingham not in the ‘Russell Group’ but known for academic standards. Nobody is saying that you have a choice of less than 10 unis (unlike in the US where the Ivy League seems to be worshipped).

Exactly. But this isn't happening to the extent we'd like.

The fact of the matter is not everyone is academically inclined. The result of the ‘everyone can do a degree’ is that every job now needs a degree , even ones like being a receptionist, which is frankly ridiculous!

Nobody has ever actually said that. We have only just in the last year or so reached the point where 50% of school leavers go to university.
It's a false narrative that everyone goes to university

My ideal system is that our school system is invested in more so that everyone who’s academically inclined regardless of background gets funnelled into academic subjects at uni. Everyone else can either do an apprenticeship, a vocational type degree/qualification, or get a job while they figure out what they want to do! With part time degrees and the OU a degree at any stage of life is possible.

I agree that schools need more investment with regards careers - in fact I'm part of a group lobbying the government for this.
However, we need to be careful not to create a two tier system ( or perpetuate it further as it exists already)
This idea that vocational course are for the less academic is not the narrative we want to promote. This perception is why degree apprenticeships haven't been the success they should have been ( well, that at the ridiculous amount of bureaucracy!)

What the current system does is force people to commit 3 years of their lives and significant expense to something that may or may not pay off dividend. But if it was the norm to do a degree once you have some life experience people would know what they want.

Nobody is forced to do anything!!

[quote Flowers500]@DelBocaVista
it depends entirely on what kind of grad recruitment you are aiming for and what your salary expectations are. I completely agree with your point that if you’re aiming at a grad scheme at Aldi, becoming a teacher or a regional BBC office then yes of course the more vocational universities are good. They aim at getting their students into these kind of programmes which lead to jobs that will earn a salary and keep you reasonably comfortable.

That’s a whole other world away from having a high-paying and really interesting career in something like top-end banking, politics, major journalist, senior civil servant or City lawyer role where you earn great money and can easily end up part time on 40-50k.

If someone picks a uni on its employment and student satisfaction ratings with the understanding that they’ll be getting a grad scheme at Aldi, that’s great! However if they’re taking that over a prestigious university and thinking that is going to help walk them into a competitive career, that’s just not fair to mislead them like that.[/quote]
Which is why I advise students to look at the employment figures of universities and courses.
That information is available.

Universities have to be very careful what they promise - no university should be guaranteeing anything. We're bound by CMA regulations.

You can present data on what previous students have gone on to do and where they work. Universities also present salary information. All the info is there!

When companies are looking at recruiting graduates and look at the Uni they went to, which league table do they use?

I've been looking at the different leagues tables I could find to try and get a feel. I am very confused.....
Some universities ranked very high in general but low for history for example (Edinburgh seems to be ome of them). Does it matter? Will employers know that or will they use the general 'Oh Edinburgh is a great Uni so that's fine' type of attitude?

From an outsider pov, it feels like a minefield

OP, you have engaged in this chat brilliantly and I think your kids are going to be well set for their careers! I wish my parents had understood more than their belief that a degree was a golden ticket.

Thanks you @therearenogoodusernamesleft
I'm trying to learn....

Edinburgh is a GREAT uni and a humanities from there is highly valued. I don’t know anyone who studied history there but you won’t have any issues with a degree from Edinburgh

For history my first thoughts would be:Ox/Cam, LSE, UCL, Durham, Edinburgh. Or consider: King’s, St. Andrews, Warwick, Queen Mary.

I’m sure their teachers and career guides would be able to advise on whether they are likely to get into the top couple of choices, or whether the slots are better used on other unis.