To think you don’t go to University just for the University experience

[CovidSmart]

Many many discussions in our house on university atm.

Two dcs who are convinced (I imagine from what school is telling them) that what is important is to find the Uni where you will get the best experience. Somehow the rest doesn’t seem to matter as

• companies will train you
• you can do whatever you want after that as long as you have a degree/master.

I see university as a way to learn about a subject so you can work after so the subject is important (eg important to learn economic if you want to work in business related fields, engineering to be an engineer etc..).

Both dcs are so adamant I’m wrong that I’m starting to question myself. Not having the experience of the British system doesn’t help (went to uni and started to work in a different country).

Any experience?

[quote TheLastLotus]@CovidSmart that’s a wise perspective on salary. What are your DC personalities like? Laidback, ambitious..?[/quote]
Dc1 is competitive and woks hard when they put their mind to it. But would be horrified at the idea of working 50 hours a week with little downtime.
Dc2 happily plods along but silently gets on with things and is hard working.

Neither of them have an idea of what to do, or wages. Just a vague idea of what they don’t want . Which is a good start imo

I totally agree with you OP.

We're having the same discussions in our house at the moment.

I can't understand why anyone would want to start their adult life £40-50k in debt just so they can have a 'fun experience'.

Degrees have become so dumbed down over the years that many of them are completely pointless. I blame it on university educated politicians who believe everyone should have a degree, regardless of the subject or how useful it will be.

University should be about learning. And using that knowledge to get to where you need to be in life.

"£40k in london doesn’t mean the same thing than £40k in newcastle or Carlisle."

Note that due to the WFH revolution, it won't matter where you live. You can 'work' in London, get a London salary, & "live" in Carlisle. Or maybe Everyone in London who can WFH will start getting Carlisle salaries. Interesting times ahead.

Degrees have become so dumbed down over the years that many of them are completely pointless.

How many degree programmes have you taught on?

@CovidSmart yes agreed - knowing what they don’t want is a good start.
One of the benefits of uni is that you get to try a lot of things, and get a sense of identity. If you do volunteer work etc you start to figure out which parts of ‘work’ you like , and which you don’t. Just try as many thing as possible, don’t just spend uni life studying and partying. I discovered that I didn’t really like my degree subject in 2nd year and talking to seniors , going to career fairs etc helped me find a new direction

Honestly there’s a finite set of skills and personalities to match to jobs IMO. For example - organised, good at dealing with people means you can be a project manager. Now whether this is a construction or tech project manager remains to be seen but it’s still the core skill. You find what you like, and what you’re curious about and just match them.

There are also people however who have no preference at all - they just want a 9-5 job and go home and do their hobbies. In that case anything with professional qualifications, a skill shortage and decent earning potential (like accounting) will do.

Also to add - at a good uni employers come to the students...so plenty of panel events etc and good alumni networks

@TheLastLotus

Also to add - at a good uni employers come to the students...so plenty of panel events etc and good alumni networks

All universities have employer engagement teams. This isn't something that just happens at 'good' universities. It's a strategic priority for most universities.

Employers and graduate recruiters work with a range of universities.

@DelBocaVista yes of course all unis have career engagement teams. But the better ones have experienced career advisors, workshops on every aspect from CV writing to personal branding. Various career fairs with a wide range of employers, talks and panel events from in social employers.
The others on the other hand have an engagement team made up of 5 people most of whom are not trained career advisors. The advise given is generic. There are no links to employers specifically for students of the uni. Just generic ones available to everyone. Not a made up story - this was the best on offer on several of my friends’ unis.

Also note that it depends on the type of employee. Ex-poly’s (especially those with placement years) can have excellent links with employers. However there are several hundred universities in the U.K. and employers can’t visit all of them. The campus recruitment list of top employers vary according to industry but you will find certain universities consistently on them.

Of course you could just research and apply online like everyone else or spare considerable time and expense travelling to recruitment events at company headquarters. But it’s so much easier when you can speak directly to people from a company on campus.

• a wide range, not in social, and it’s not several hundred just a hundred

[quote TheLastLotus]@DelBocaVista yes of course all unis have career engagement teams. But the better ones have experienced career advisors, workshops on every aspect from CV writing to personal branding. Various career fairs with a wide range of employers, talks and panel events from in social employers.
The others on the other hand have an engagement team made up of 5 people most of whom are not trained career advisors. The advise given is generic. There are no links to employers specifically for students of the uni. Just generic ones available to everyone. Not a made up story - this was the best on offer on several of my friends’ unis.

Also note that it depends on the type of employee. Ex-poly’s (especially those with placement years) can have excellent links with employers. However there are several hundred universities in the U.K. and employers can’t visit all of them. The campus recruitment list of top employers vary according to industry but you will find certain universities consistently on them.

Of course you could just research and apply online like everyone else or spare considerable time and expense travelling to recruitment events at company headquarters. But it’s so much easier when you can speak directly to people from a company on campus.[/quote]
How long ago were your friends at university?

ALL universities have careers advisers- the vast majority are qualified to at least postgraduate level. I know this because I train them!!!
My university has one of the smallest careers services with 17 staff. My husbands university has a 70+ staff. Most air somewhere in between.
Not all of them are careers advisers/consultants but they're all supporting students develop their employability skills.

There are a few universities who don't really prioritise careers and employability but they are very few and far between. Employability is a key strategic priority for universities which means this area has seem significant investment in the last few years.

I don't know a single university who doesn't offer students multiple opportunities to engage with employers. There are specific teams who focus on this.

@TheLastLotus

* a wide range, not in social, and it’s not several hundred just a hundred

I know. I'm an academic. I teach A module on higher education policy and practice and run an MA in career development.... the preferred qualification for working as a careers adviser in HE.

@DelBocaVista this was within the previous 5 years.
Also the point wasn’t just about employers, it was about the type of employers.

Most lower ranked universities have good links with employers for vocational/placement year subjects. However they don’t have the engagement with employers offering top graduate schemes that higher ranked unis have. It costs a lot of time and expense for companies to attend career fairs and they only attend 20 -30 each season at most. So this is obviously a problem if you’re studying a generic degree like History. You want access to as wide a range of employers as possible.

As mentioned there’s nothing to stop anyone from applying to any grad scheme. But for people who are unsure and doing generic academic degrees the opportunity to talk to people is invaluable.

Oh and the standard model is to have a careers consultant who is linked to a faculty . They will be a specialist in the subjects offered and not only advise students but they act as consultants to academic staff in relation to the employability content of courses and modules. They may also do some teaching themselves on employability related content.

@TheLastLotus is correct. If you’re talking good law firms for example, they only visit a narrow range of top universities. So even if the career teams who work for the uni are good, a less prestigious university won’t have the same opportunities to engage with the recruitment teams for these firms.

Most lower ranked universities have good links with employers for vocational/placement year subjects. However they don’t have the engagement with employers offering top graduate schemes that higher ranked unis have. It costs a lot of time and expense for companies to attend career fairs and they only attend 20 -30 each season at most. So this is obviously a problem if you’re studying a generic degree like History. You want access to as wide a range of employers as possible.

You're wrong.

It's not all about the big careers fairs. Employer engagement is so much more than this! So much so I run an entire masters module on it!! Careers fairs are just one weeks worth of content. I've written a couple of peer reviewed journal articles recently on university careers fairs if you're really interested 😉

[quote Flowers500]@TheLastLotus is correct. If you’re talking good law firms for example, they only visit a narrow range of top universities. So even if the career teams who work for the uni are good, a less prestigious university won’t have the same opportunities to engage with the recruitment teams for these firms.[/quote]
But we're not just talking law firms.

This last year has changed everything anyway. All careers events have been virtual which has meant graduate recruiters have been able to engage with a much wider range of students and universities.
We've also seen universities work collaboratively on events which again opened up additional opportunities.

@DelBocaVista the fact that you say ‘one week’s of content’ shows how much you don’t actually know.

I’m probably outing myself here but I didn’t leave university that long ago. My university, in addition to several career fairs , had throughout the year talks, panel events etc from various firms. I agree that Covid has been a great leveller though.
Q : Do top firms make a greater effort to directly engage with students of certain universities?
A : Yes.

However you are dancing around the fact that going to a top ranked university makes accessing certain opportunities easier. Not saying that people can’t apply from other unis but you will have an EASIER time if you’re from a top uni. Why are you so intent on pretending that there is no difference between universities?
Also note that here we’re discussing OP’s DC who are academic and want to do a subject like history. That is why university name is important. If OP’s DC were not very academic ,and /or doing computer science in fact I’d suggest the opposite- lower ranked uni CompSci grads have more practical experience compared to higher ranked unis which teach more theoretical aspects.

Also a final note - I understand that you’re very well qualified in your field. However you seem to have a very academic understanding. I was a student who went through the process a few years ago. I am now on the other side of the table, helping recruit people. Although I work for a big firm my field is one of the most ‘meritocratic’. I have seen graduates from ex-polys put Oxbridge graduates to shame. So I don’t judge people by their uni. But the facts remain that companies have limited HR resource and where in person events are concerned it makes sense to focus on top unis.

Also you are forgetting alumni networks... these people themselves organise events and as most alumni work for big firms that gives them an edge.

Also adding of course I acknowledge covid changes things - however it’s unlikely that firms won’t resume campus specific recruiting once everything’s back to normal..

I missed out on the "university experience" at the usual age of 18-22 because it was the 1960s and my parents would not have supported me financially. I made my own way there many years later. There was a big age gap being a mature student and I was not into the partying/clubbing/drinking crowd. I went to uni to get a good degree and secondly for the intellectual stimulation. I went on to do a masters and a doctorate so I switched careers and became an academic. So university meant something different to me than just a rite of passage between adolescence and adulthood.

I was hard, sharp and ambitious. It was an opportunity for me to see how far I could go intellectually and academically because I missed out earlier in life.

[quote TheLastLotus]@DelBocaVista the fact that you say ‘one week’s of content’ shows how much you don’t actually know.

I’m probably outing myself here but I didn’t leave university that long ago. My university, in addition to several career fairs , had throughout the year talks, panel events etc from various firms. I agree that Covid has been a great leveller though.
Q : Do top firms make a greater effort to directly engage with students of certain universities?
A : Yes.

However you are dancing around the fact that going to a top ranked university makes accessing certain opportunities easier. Not saying that people can’t apply from other unis but you will have an EASIER time if you’re from a top uni. Why are you so intent on pretending that there is no difference between universities?
Also note that here we’re discussing OP’s DC who are academic and want to do a subject like history. That is why university name is important. If OP’s DC were not very academic ,and /or doing computer science in fact I’d suggest the opposite- lower ranked uni CompSci grads have more practical experience compared to higher ranked unis which teach more theoretical aspects.

Also a final note - I understand that you’re very well qualified in your field. However you seem to have a very academic understanding. I was a student who went through the process a few years ago. I am now on the other side of the table, helping recruit people. Although I work for a big firm my field is one of the most ‘meritocratic’. I have seen graduates from ex-polys put Oxbridge graduates to shame. So I don’t judge people by their uni. But the facts remain that companies have limited HR resource and where in person events are concerned it makes sense to focus on top unis.

Also you are forgetting alumni networks... these people themselves organise events and as most alumni work for big firms that gives them an edge.[/quote]
Of course. I'm sure you're right. I don't know anything and you know best!!

However, just to give you an idea of my background at a risk of outing myself.....

I have a postgraduate diploma, MSc and PhD in careers.
I worked as a qualified careers adviser in schools for 2 years and then HE for 12 years.
I run one of the few postgraduate courses in career development in the UK and the ONLY professionally accredited course that focuses on HE.
My colleague is one of the world leading experts in HE careers and my husband runs one of the largest HE careers services in the UK. In fact, my husbands PhD focussed on careers fairs and we've co-written journal articles and book chapters on this specific subject.
I sit on the board of our professional body and specifically advise on professional practice- so not just an academic understanding.

I have never said that there is no difference in universities I just urge people not to dismiss students that attend non elite universities and challenge the fact the non elite universities don't give their students access to top employers.

As for alumni. I've not ignored it. It just hasn't been a point of discussion. Different universities use alumni differently and as a result they are sometimes based within careers and sometimes marketing.

Also I forgot to add in all of this ‘big firm’ is probably not the best way to describe it ... as boutique firms and niche employers in very competitive fields also recruit from select universities. For these there’s an additional advantage as they take CV’s on the spot and some people have received interviews. Startups , boutique investment firms, research outfits and government bodies specialising in certain aspects of foreign policy come to mind ...

@TheLastLotus

Also adding of course I acknowledge covid changes things - however it’s unlikely that firms won’t resume campus specific recruiting once everything’s back to normal..

Again, I'll have to disagree. Most universities I know are planning on keeping most of their provision online.

There may eventually be online events but they will be in addition to online events.
At my university we won't be offering any large scale events until at least September 2022.

@TheLastLotus

Also I forgot to add in all of this ‘big firm’ is probably not the best way to describe it ... as boutique firms and niche employers in very competitive fields also recruit from select universities. For these there’s an additional advantage as they take CV’s on the spot and some people have received interviews. Startups , boutique investment firms, research outfits and government bodies specialising in certain aspects of foreign policy come to mind ...

You do realise that I know all of this....... as I've explained this is my profession!!

It's both.

And for me, despite going to an amazing university, the non academic side was, in the scheme of things, probably more significant to my future life. I am so grateful for my time at university, for the time that I, for the first time, got to work out who I was, what I could do. The sort of person I could be away from home and away from my family.

@DelBocaVista there’s too much variance within degrees and industries to ‘blanket dismiss’ students from non-elite universities. The comparison is with regards to academic/red-brick subjects. In fact as I mentioned for some fields students from ‘non-elite’ unis will actually have an easier time getting a job. This doesn’t change the fact that a history degree from an academic university is worth more than one from a lower ranked university because the entry criteria for a lower ranked uni is lower - ergo someone from there is likely to be less academic. Of course this is again not a blanket statement as it’s perfectly possible for someone to have gotten great A-level grades but chosen a lower ranked uni for whatever reason but the academic standard of work expected varies.

Again as you are very qualified you probably know this - but any advice based on unis depends on the individual’s circumstances. Lower ranked unis having less access to top employers doesn’t mean that they have none at all. Equally for a lot of jobs emotional maturity and attitude are more important and the degree, an indicator of academic ability, is of zero significance. It’s just that going to a top uni allows you opportunities for all jobs, academic and /or otherwise. If you have the grades and the ability then it’s good to aim for one. But in terms of general applications - a candidate from a top uni with nothing else except grades will not be preferred over someone from a ‘less elite’ uni with work experience/extra activites.