To think you don’t go to University just for the University experience

[CovidSmart]

Many many discussions in our house on university atm.

Two dcs who are convinced (I imagine from what school is telling them) that what is important is to find the Uni where you will get the best experience. Somehow the rest doesn’t seem to matter as

• companies will train you
• you can do whatever you want after that as long as you have a degree/master.

I see university as a way to learn about a subject so you can work after so the subject is important (eg important to learn economic if you want to work in business related fields, engineering to be an engineer etc..).

Both dcs are so adamant I’m wrong that I’m starting to question myself. Not having the experience of the British system doesn’t help (went to uni and started to work in a different country).

Any experience?

@CovidSmart

Gently OP, you sound a bit over-bearing & also poorly informed.

Well I am sure you have learnt from my posts
that I am not from this country

• the country I am comingh from has a very different aproach
• I know I am poorly informed. That's why I started this theard in the first place.

No need to tell me that.

However, I am concerned for my dcs. I want them to make the right choice so they can have the life they want. I dont care about the subject. I don't care about the Uni. I dont care about the 'university experience'. But I know that understanding the sytsem is crucial to make the right decision.
And unless I am asking question and airing my view (which might or might be appropriate to the UK) i am not going to learn and I am not going to be able to guide my dcs the best way possible.

I get it.

But you are being provided with some good advice here & you keep batting it back.

You should absolutely care about the course your DC do, the university they go to, the culture of the place - as combined, these will (hopefully) ensure a happy experience for your DC.

This more than anything will lead to a productive & happy career afterwards.

I think for a degree like history one of the most important things is looking at the specific universities module lists and making sure the modules they offer are of interest.

My brother did a history degree and got onto the civil service with a history degree....he did do a masters after his UG degree. So not sure if that’s what swung him the place or not.

@CovidSmart

Don't pressurise your DC. They should do as well as they are able.

Very british approach and not the way I was brought up.

Having said that, it's not about putting pressure. But just like you need to know you need specific grades to go to Oxbridge, then you also need to know you need specific grades to get to *some of the grad schemes.
That's knowledge and NOT putting pressure on someone. Then it will be up to them to do whatever they want to do.

I'm Irish ☺️

But seriously, going on about what they need in a degree is pressurising & infantilising.

I appreciate there are cultural differences.

But your DC will be adults at university.

You can support them, sure, but they need to make their own choices about grades & how they want to work. That's on them (and so will the consequences be).

A recent study showed that those who attended a well-regarded university did better in their careers than those from universities which are further down the league tables.

Which wasn’t really news to anyone, was it?

And the league tables only tell part of the story. As a general rule of thumb, the older the university, the better - particularly for non-vocational degrees. This is undoubtedly unfair and snobby, but it’s how it goes.

NB Take the (self-selected) ‘Russell Group’ with a pinch of salt. There are quite a few uninspiring institutions in there.

What matters is the skills the student learns- as well as the knowledge.
And being able to apply them- analysing information, communication, presenting information, interpersonal and teamworkIng skills….

In my day you went to uni to be free of your parents. I couldn't wait.

If I was going to University now, I’d do the following.

First, I’d get the shortage occupation list to see what jobs the country is short of.

Second, I’d find a list of jobs most likely to be taken by robots and a list of those least likely.

I’d cross reference the two when deciding what degree to do. I would definitely err towards something vocational.

In the UK the conventional view (and my view) is that you go for the experience - the central thing is to have your mind stretched and challenged. Unless you need to do something vocationally specific like Medicine the degree subject doesn’t matter because most graduate jobs won’t care what you studied as much as they’ll care about the quality of the institution and the class of degree. (Unlike eg France where there’s a much stronger correlation between degree subject and career.)

Part of the university experience is also living away from home, meeting people, finding out who you are..

What twentyten says.
Of course more vocational/practical subjects like engineering are a bit different. But even then, I don't see it as impossible or even particularly hard to imagine that someone might get a practical degree and then find themselves working in a totally different field, using the skills and things they've learned detailed by twentyten.

In my day you went to uni to be free of your parents. I couldn't wait.
Me too

It's quite a luxury to have that attitude. I went when it was still free but I was very mindful that it was my crack at getting a good degree from a good university in order to have a secure future. Neither of my parents had the opportunity to go to university so I didn't take it for granted.
If I were young now I would look forward to the experience but know that competition for jobs will be fierce and so go to the best place I possibly could for the subject I chose. I would definitely look at how many graduates got jobs from those unis.

Part of the university experience is also living away from home, meeting people, finding out who you are

This in spades. OP, leave your young people to it. Let them choose what and where. You’re sounding overbearing. Have faith in them.

Haven't read the whole thread. I did a vocational degree at the place I thought I will have the most fun - only realised a few years later that I went to one of the beat Unis in the country

My DH did a History degree and is now a very successful solicitor

My DS also planning on doing History with a view to going into Law later on. I want him to go to the university where he will have the most fun and enjoy. You won't get this time back

On the face of it, my story supports the OP's position. I went to uni to read music, full of dreams of becoming a composer and achieving moderate fame and fortune, surrounded by creative people in a career that effortlessly crosses boundaries and helps me to travel the world.

Didn't happen.

Instead, I left with an unimpressive degree and did a vocational post-grad journalism course. In theory, I could have done similar professional training when I was 16, and had a decent full-time job by the time I'd completed my formal education.

But, I only got involved in journalism after working for the student newspaper at uni (and I only got involved in that due to a misguided crush, but that's another story). The student paper was more enthusiastic about me because I was able to write about arts / culture (pretentiously, as it happens, but I was a music student, FFS!) and could fill a gap when I arrived. Then I started to branch into other sections, which helped me build the portfolio that got me onto a post-grad journalism course.

Today, COVID permitting, I travel the world reporting on international sporting events - I must have worked in close to 20 countries by now, from Chile to Korea, at everything from Olympics to low-level regional championships. I've lived in two other countries, I've acquired a fairly fluent level in another language and, arguably, have a niche that affords the moderate renown I'd hoped for as a musician. In theory, I could have done all that going straight to Darlington College after my GCSEs; in reality, this wouldn't have happened without going to uni and studying a wholly 'impractical' degree.

And, for the record, I wasn't a great musician - the textbook definition of a gifted amateur who could never hope to step up a level. Something else I needed to learn before I could progress with my life.

That's not to say I don't have issues with some of the things that happened while I was at university. A system that was better able to recognise when people were following the wrong path and offer alternatives, rather than just pushing them down that path and handing over a degree at the end regardless, would have made a huge difference to me. But the 'university experience', even when flawed, offers opportunities that I would not easily have found elsewhere.

@EarringsandLipstick

Sorry you haven't found it helpful. I still think you are over-thinking it. Can you really not think of a few universities off the top of your head that you can imagine DC1 for example, fitting well into?

I'm not the OP.

You appear from comments to work at a university?

I think that you perhaps over estimate just how much people outside of the academic world actually know about the day to day life of any particular university.

Although totally anecdotal, I was the first person within my extended family to ever go to university; no one had any idea of what different universities were actually like.

Fast forward a generation and my DD graduated two years ago. When she was applying for places I could give her information about my experiences of one particular London university 30 years previously. But, apart from that, I had no real knowledge of what current conditions were like.

You'll know about the culture by visiting the University (when allowed), going in their website in the meantime, and checking in general public discourse to see what's said.

I really will disagree with you here (with the possible exception of what has been said recently about Edinburgh University here on MN).

Visiting a university for an open day shows what the facilities are like but really little else. Likewise, all that a good website shows is that the institution spent money on getting a good website.

Then, when it comes to "general public discourse" I picked the university that my DD went to and googled eg "What is XXX university really like?" And that came back with some positive comments.

I also googled "Is XXX university overrated?" And that came back with a whole load of negative comments.

I'm sure that if you google any university in the UK you will get a similar range of comments.

So how does that help someone to choose?

I do believe that you are being unfairly harsh on the OP (and others who know little about universities) with regards to understanding what individual universities are like.

@MargateSands

If I was going to University now, I’d do the following.

First, I’d get the shortage occupation list to see what jobs the country is short of.

Second, I’d find a list of jobs most likely to be taken by robots and a list of those least likely.

I’d cross reference the two when deciding what degree to do. I would definitely err towards something vocational.

That's so sad.

And pointless.

In the years prior to the last recession, universities were full of students on engineering & science related courses.

They couldn't have foreseen a recession.

Then they couldn't get jobs for love nor money for quite a few years.

Subsequently, numbers applying to these courses fell dramatically. And as things improved over the coming 4 years it takes to do a degree, the economy improved & then there were no graduates for the jobs.

The point is the economy is cyclical, as well as being unexpected. Things will emerge and change in the life cycle of a degree programme.

In life in general, there will be ups & downs. In my career, I had excellent experience & worked in a highly specialised corporate field. I lost my job in the recession, was pregnant with my second baby, then went on to have a 3rd, then my abusive marriage ended.

I kept working but in much lower-level, temporary roles, as I hadn't the experience for the academic sector, where the jobs were. A long number of years later, I got there. A good interesting permanent job in a university.

My point is, you can't plan life out. All the people I've known who've succeeded made informed (that's important) choices based on what interests them & sparks curiosity.

I studied history. Most certainly had the experience - met lifelong friends, met my wife, learned to surf, drank way too much etc.

Learned loads about a subject I love. Learned loads of transferable skills.

Now work in an entirely unrelated field. Earn a decent salary although I’m not a high earner (although well above average). Plenty of people I work with have no degree.

Would I do it again? Absolutely.

You don’t need to know at 17 what you want to “be”. My dh felt pressured to do a professional vocational degree and he’s felt rather “stuck” ever since and on a single defined path.
My parents on the other hand encouraged me not to choose a specific career at 17 but to choose a degree in a subject with good employment potential but no specific career path (maths). Unless a child has a strong passion for something at age 16/17 I would advise the most “open” option at degree level.

My DS is looking at universities right now and one of his main criteria for choosing is which city he'd like to live in. Problem is he doesn't know what course he actually wants to do.

I did mainly go to university for the experience myself and only worked in my field of study for a few years (until I decided what I really wanted to do). I wasn't ready for adult life at the age of 18 and I found it was a great transition period. I'm sure my parents are quite disappointed and probably feel my degree was wasted, but I don't feel it was a waste and I would want my DS to have the university experience.

@MargateSands

If I was going to University now, I’d do the following.

First, I’d get the shortage occupation list to see what jobs the country is short of.

Second, I’d find a list of jobs most likely to be taken by robots and a list of those least likely.

I’d cross reference the two when deciding what degree to do. I would definitely err towards something vocational.

...but you wouldn’t actually end up in a particularly good job that way. Typical high paying grad careers: law, consulting and finance. Best way to get into them: undergrad from Oxbridge/Imperial/UCL/Edinburgh etc. Then either a specialist postgrad or a grad scheme. Then you’re 25, qualified and on 50-100k.

Your approach would probably end you up with a fine qualification in an ok but stable job that would never get you into anything remotely high flying.

It’s this misguided but well meaning advice that really holds back a lot of kids whose parents are not in professional jobs.

[quote nickymanchester]@EarringsandLipstick

Sorry you haven't found it helpful. I still think you are over-thinking it. Can you really not think of a few universities off the top of your head that you can imagine DC1 for example, fitting well into?

I'm not the OP.

You appear from comments to work at a university?

I think that you perhaps over estimate just how much people outside of the academic world actually know about the day to day life of any particular university.

Although totally anecdotal, I was the first person within my extended family to ever go to university; no one had any idea of what different universities were actually like.

Fast forward a generation and my DD graduated two years ago. When she was applying for places I could give her information about my experiences of one particular London university 30 years previously. But, apart from that, I had no real knowledge of what current conditions were like.

You'll know about the culture by visiting the University (when allowed), going in their website in the meantime, and checking in general public discourse to see what's said.

I really will disagree with you here (with the possible exception of what has been said recently about Edinburgh University here on MN).

Visiting a university for an open day shows what the facilities are like but really little else. Likewise, all that a good website shows is that the institution spent money on getting a good website.

Then, when it comes to "general public discourse" I picked the university that my DD went to and googled eg "What is XXX university really like?" And that came back with some positive comments.

I also googled "Is XXX university overrated?" And that came back with a whole load of negative comments.

I'm sure that if you google any university in the UK you will get a similar range of comments.

So how does that help someone to choose?

I do believe that you are being unfairly harsh on the OP (and others who know little about universities) with regards to understanding what individual universities are like.[/quote]
Thanks for your comments, you make good points.

I should say I am in Ireland. There is a really strong culture of 3rd level attendance here, and a huge amount of general discourse on education. I think that might make it a bit different (stand to be corrected) from the UK?

Also, we're a lot smaller! Much fewer Universities so a lot easier to get first-have info. That makes a difference too.

I recognise that I work in an academic environment but I don't think that makes as much difference as you think.

I note your points regarding culture. But I disagree. I think you can tell a huge amount from direct contact, whether in person (best) or online (also useful).

In Ireland, the key figures in University leadership & notable academics are part of societal discourse, and therefore it's easy to get a sense of the universities.

Although I'm not in the UK, I do see something similar there, and can certainly get a 'feel' for particular universities through my reading, listening & viewing of media.

I didn't mean to be harsh to OP and I would hope I helped.

I do feel frustrated that even with lots of constructive posts, she's persisting in pushing those back & rejecting suggestions.

But you are entirely correct, that's the OP's choice & I'm sorry if I sounded harsh 💐

I worked in market research for a long time and the only type of degree that the company wouldn't consider was market research. Partly because they didn't want to have to undo bad or irrelevant teaching but mostly because they felt that other degrees brought more to the table in terms of having a diversely skilled company. People who had followed their passion in their degree were just more interesting and flexible.

The phrase 'university experience' is often used dismissively, but really it's about their whole life for the next 3+ years.

If you were going to move somewhere for 3 years, would you only care about what job you could do there? Or would you also want to know about housing options, local amenities, options for hobbies, etc? It's no different for students.

I know someone who only applied to unis with bell ringing groups, because she was (and still is!) a passionate bell-ringer. That hasn't stopped her going on to have a very successful career, and allowed her to have a good time during her degree.

As others have said, grad schemes in many sectors (law, finance, marketing, management civil service just to name a few) are open to graduates with any degree.

know someone who only applied to unis with bell ringing groups, because she was (and still is!) a passionate bell-ringer.

I love this!

Back in the day you were the cream of the crop if you went to uni. Lots of today's graduates are starting out in jobs that would have only required A Levels when I left school. I don't think the system is going in the right direction based on some of the recent graduates I have worked with in the last year or so.

I would advise them to be thinking about which direction they would like to head in after university and consider that when choosing a subject. Not everyone gets onto a graduate scheme. Several years ago I worked with a law graduate who was working as an HR Assistant. When she left she ended up working in Sales. Her degree did seem like a complete waste of time.