AIBU - family member and money issue arghhhh......

[stfuDoris]

Please be gentle - long time lurker but first actual post of my own....

So...roll back to first lockdown March 2020...I worked throughout each lockdown no furlough etc so maintained regular wage however my sister who is self employed had to cease trading and initially was not in receipt of any loans grants etc. She was extremely stressed during this time as had no way to cover her regular monthly outgoings so I offered to cover some of her bills to ease the pressure as did another family member - in total I paid £1800 of her monthly bills over approx 5 months until she was able to start working again. Yes I received my normal wage each month but I have my own bills and this was an additional expense each month that I had to budget for, it was not from savings etc.

Roll on to August 2020 my sister finally received payment - to the tune of £18k which was backdated to March 2020...she straight away paid back the other family member who had also paid some of her bills.

Now here is my dilemma...I rightly or wrongly ‘expected’ her to do the same re the money I had paid out but it was never mentioned...she has now put the majority of this money into savings - for a new car and luxury holiday for when times permit.....has not had to use any for expenses raised during that time if that makes sense as they were covered. She also lives with a parent and was rent/board free throughout.

A week ago I had mentioned a car bill I had and she said if I was short she could ‘lend’ me the money however would need it back as she was going to book a holiday as soon as she could. I ‘flippantly’ said - well instead of lending me the money you could pay back what I paid out during lockdown .....and all hell broke loose.... she said I had told her not to worry about it at the time which I am sure I probably did as she had enough going on, and at the time was unsure whether she would even qualify for anything. She also said it’s only because she received this money (8 months ago!!) that I brought it up....which again is partly true if she had not have been in a place financially to have paid me back I would probably have just written it off however, she is in a position financially and if that had been me ‘morally’ I would have paid it back regardless. I am now left feeling like I am completely in the wrong and the worst of the worst for even bringing this up, she has contacted me since saying she can’t believe I brought it up and reiterated that I was the one who said don’t worry about it at the time and that the offer of the loan was still there if I wanted it but it would be a loan.

For context she is quite a bit younger than me, late 20’s tho so not a teenager......is single, lives with parent, her monthly outgoings that she couldn’t meet during lockdown were all personal bills ie credit cards, car insurance, phone and finance agreements.

I feel a complete mug here as the money she received was backdated to March 2020 so she has been ‘compensated’ as such for money that she would have had to pay out during the time when she was unable to work however she is so annoyed and shocked that I dared to mention the money that I paid out on HER bills, I am second guessing myself and thinking maybe I was wrong to even bring it up?? AIBU?

1. Your paying for her holiday which is a luxury item OR basically she's been paid by the government (my tax money, thanks) to have a fucking holiday when as a keyworker some of us have just been working the entire time and will only get a 1% rise, but anyway...
2. When you said don't worry you probably didn't expect her to get a payout so deducted there was no way she could pay you back. Now the situation has changed and if you'd known that you m wouldn't have said it. So she can pay up.
3. She's making a massive fuss to manipulate the situation and manipulate you into thinking YOU are the unreasonable one and can't possibly challenge her without being a horrible person. But you're not horrible. She is. If it wasn't this situation it would come out of another. I'm sure this behaviour and approach by her isn't new. Think about it. Who was the other family member? Maybe she thinks she can get away with it with you, like sisters don't count.

It's really easy OP. Every time you would have paid for a birthday or Christmas present for her, you put that into your savings. You don't have to buy her a present again for years, until the £1800 is covered. When asked, you can explain why.

Have you spoken to her since she’s had time to process her outburst or is she still cross?

She is definitely being very unreasonable.
“Borrow” a similar amount of money of her. That will shift the power. Then decide how to be difficult about paying it back, delay etc, small amounts etc

You said don't worry about it as at the time there was uncertainty and of course you wouldn't have expected it back if she couldn't claim or have access to anything, you were supporting her as you would a family member in crisis. But she was able to claim and it was backdated to the time in question so it's only right debts loaned/given were settled. She has done so for others but not for you and the fact she can't see or acknowledge the above doesn't sit right. It's the principle. I would be cutting contact to a minimum. She will realise this has soured things. As she ' grows up' maybe she develops a conscience about the time she spent shelfishly put herself first and didn't do the right thing. This will always be a thorn in your relationship going forwards.

YANBU I think you need to say to her, at the time I may have said not to worry about it, because no one could have foreseen how things would pan out with payments from the government. If you’d had no payment or a lesser payment then my, ‘don’t worry about it,’ would have meant don’t pay me back. But you’ve had sufficient to cover all your bills and set up savings, it looks to me as though £1800 of that savings fund is my money, you wouldn’t have savings of that level if it weren’t for me. That goes beyond what not worrying about it means and you think she should see that too, you want your money back in full and she will just need to save a little longer for her holiday and car.

Also do you think her initial OTT reaction was she absolutely knows you’re right and hoped you’d never mention it?

Sorry I’ve only read the first few pages, so someone else may have said it.

I would be asking her why money that you need would be a loan from her, but money she needed would have been a gift from you?

Even worse, she has it sat in savings for luxuries (idiot - if she had to get you to bail her out then she needs savings), whereas you had to cover it each month. Worse still, this was government funding to cover her costs, which you covered.

I would have paid you back as soon as I’d got the payment and figured out I had enough left. The unbelievable nerve of saying it’s for a holiday is staggering.

Stand firm and tell her how offensive she is being.

Don’t give in OP. She needs to pay you back. Don’t let her take the piss.

Morally and all of that, your Dsis is an obtuse arse. However, you never said it was a loan, you never brought it up when she talked about paying the other person back, there have been several occasions to bring it up and you've only just done so. I do think it sounds like a massive misunderstanding and if you'd said anything like 'pay me back when you can' rather than 'don't worry about it' then it would have clearly been a loan and this wouldn't have blown up. You say yourself that you didn't know if she'd get reimbursed and if she hadn't then you wouldn't have expected her to reimburse you. I'm not blaming you AT ALL, what you did was a wonderful and generous thing, but without even hinting that you'd be expected re-payment at some point then you're entirely at the mercy of her moral fibre to see things the same way as you do.

A previous poster said that "Don't worry about it" means "Don't worry about it YET". I completely disagree and that's at the core of this unfortunate confusion. You didn't add any "yet" so it's simply not there. You told her not to worry about it so she hasn't, and you've said nothing, because you didn't feel you should have to. There's so much silence, subjectivity and miscommunication, it's no wonder this has gone wrong.

Your only angle is a rational argument that the government money means she's been paid twice and that shouldn't be a windfall and should mean it's only right that she pays you back. If you can pursue that dispassionately, then perhaps with time to cool off, she'll come around. But I think it'll only exacerbate things to go the other route of "It was a loan all along. You're the good kind sister who's been silently waiting and taken advantage of and she's the bad selfish sister who knew it was a loan and didn't give a shit because she just wants holidays." I think you have genuinely cut her some slack for the miscommunications and not make this a bigger mess than it already is.

I’d be tempted to say to her, “So the money I spent bailing you out when you were in dire financial straits, which has now been paid to you by the government, you have no intention of repaying? Despite the fact you’ve effectively made a profit from my generosity? Ok, thanks for making that crystal clear.”

My mother pulled a fast one like this on her sister. Mother wanted to borrow money. My aunt very kindly lent her £20K (not sure what for) this still remained unpaid for 8 years. When their mother (my nan) passed away, my aunt was executor of grandmother's estate.
Aunt reminded my mother of the debt, saying she would now be able repay her. The first time I heard about this my mother was raging about it on the phone to me. I told her to do the right thing. My mother is defo a narcissist. My aunt didn't mention it to anyone at the time. Aunt only mentioned to me once it had been repaid and I explained to her I had told my mother to see sense and pay it back now she had the money. Shaming your sister into repaying might work. I would consider broaching it with your parents if she doesn't respond (get it in writing).

You did a lovely thing and she sounds awful.

Ask her to lend you £1500. Don’t pay it back. If she says you will have to repay it, agree and then just don’t, or offer her a fiver a month.

You can write off the other £300. Just buy her a box of Quality Street for birthdays and Christmas until you judge the debt is recovered.

Clearly never lend her anything again.

Question- does she pay your parents any board and lodging? If not, I think that's probably the root of the issue, she is used to close family propping her up and enabling her to be an overgrown teenager.

So while I agree with the others that it's time to try to embarrass her into paying up by making it slightly more public, if her parents allow her to live there rent-free then they will probably be more inclined to pander to her as well.

I'm absolutely not saying adult children shouldn't live at home, far from it, but if she's normally earning a wage the she should be making some sort of contribution to the household.

If she is paying board then your parents might be supportive and increase this to cover repayments to you? Although she should pay it in a lump seeing as it's already sat in the bank but she clearly isn't going to do that willingly now.

Ouch. She’s being very unreasonable

It certainly is a measure of character. Even if someone said ‘don’t worry about it’ then your moral compass would kick in that you have gotten a nice lump sum and I’m going to pay back the people that helped me out.
It says more about her than you. Keep pestering her and mention it to family that she’d ‘lend’ you money when you lent her some and she hadn’t given it back yet. CF

You really should have mentioned it as soon as she got the backdated payment "that's great, here is my bank details to repay my loan"

I think you missed the point. OP didn't giver her sister a loan, she offerered to pay her bills and told her not to worry about paying her back. It wasn't a loan, it was a gift.
Which was very stupid of her and her sister should pay her back anyway, obviously. But she doesn't actually have to as it wasn't a loan.

I don't believe you should go down the route of sneaking the money back from her under false pretences, even if it was your money to begin with; this isn't The Sting, it's a family, and two wrongs etc. I note that you don't want to do it either.

Unfortunately it won't help with the car bill, but at least you do know where you stand from now on and she can be in no doubt that if there is ever a next time when she needs a hand-out, she can't look at you for it. One day she may be very sorry she cut off that source of goodwill. It's true that she may have misunderstood your unspoken terms, that since she has been reimbursed for the expenses you covered it is only decent to reimburse you in turn, but that should lead to her feeling disappointed at worst, not flatly refusing to repay it.

DSis and I have both been in the situation at different times where we never knew where the next meal was coming from (we didn't have any parents to live with by that time, either). In each case we had no hesitation in lending each other the necessary cash, and covering day-to-day expenses like groceries, until the other was back on her feet. And in each case we made repaying family and friends the absolute priority as soon as we could. That's what you do when you actually give a shit, isn't it? Or isn't it?

Be honest... Say you feel that she is taking the piss and you know that she has chosen to misinterpret your statement to mean that you were giving her the money, when it was always a loan. She knows it’s been uncomfortable and she needs to stop being so selfish and be responsible and pay her debts.

@coldswimmer88

You really should have mentioned it as soon as she got the backdated payment "that's great, here is my bank details to repay my loan"

I think you missed the point. OP didn't giver her sister a loan, she offerered to pay her bills and told her not to worry about paying her back. It wasn't a loan, it was a gift.
Which was very stupid of her and her sister should pay her back anyway, obviously. But she doesn't actually have to as it wasn't a loan.

I get the impression that the OP didn’t want to discuss repayment at the time because the sister was so worried about having no money coming in and no indication that the government would give her anything. So the OP based her decision to pay her sisters bills on the situation as it was at the time.

The moment the sister received the lump sum from the government, turning the OP’s money into a profit for her, was the moment she should have said, “look, I know you said it wasn’t a loan but I now have the money twice over and you can’t afford to get your car fixed. I want to pay it back.”

I'd expect this type of selfish behaviour from a teenager but not an adult in their late 20s.

Of course you said not to worry about it she was super stressed with money worries! It's definitely more hurtful that she thinks because you didn't formally say it was a loan she hasn't thought for herself to pay you back. Rather than it go on luxuries.

Also I echo what pp's are saying that her outgoing seem high. So perhaps her priorities are just on maintaining that level of spending?

Regardless of what may have been said or the circumstances of how she was compensated, the simple fact is when she was in trouble, you were prepared to make sacrifices and go without to help her.
Now the shoe is on the other foot, she's not prepared to do the same. Her holiday comes before ensuring you can keep your car (which you presumably need to work) on the road.
I'd be pointing this out to her and asking how she'd have felt when she was struggling and scared if you'd come round showing off lovely new jewellery because you deserved a treat and why shouldn't you enjoy your money.
You'd have been perfectly entitled to do so but it wouldn't have made you the kind of person she'd want to know

The moment the sister received the lump sum from the government, turning the OP’s money into a profit for her, was the moment she should have said, “look, I know you said it wasn’t a loan but I now have the money twice over and you can’t afford to get your car fixed. I want to pay it back.”

I don't disagree but it doesn't change the fact that she didn't giver her sister a loan and she never asked to be paid back, even when the sister got the money.
While sister is firmly in the wrong and should obviously have paid OP back, OP created this situation and never said a word until now.

I disagree with the majority here, you basically told her not to pay it back. You can’t then change your mind and say you want it.

Now she’s being unreasonable in that she should give you the money ans quietly explain she finds your behaviour unacceptable in gifting the money to her then demanding it back.

However I also feel you are being unreasonable as you basically gifted it to her,

@Bluntness100

I disagree with the majority here, you basically told her not to pay it back. You can’t then change your mind and say you want it.

Now she’s being unreasonable in that she should give you the money ans quietly explain she finds your behaviour unacceptable in gifting the money to her then demanding it back.

However I also feel you are being unreasonable as you basically gifted it to her,

As several of us have mentioned, the OP told her sister “not to worry” about paying it back, at a time when neither of them knew that the money would be paid to the sister in full by the government.

With that now being the case and the situation now being completely different from when the OP paid her sister’s bills, the sister has not only the lump sum from the government but her bills paid by the OP so that she is now in a position to have savings, and to plan a luxury holiday.

If you think that makes the OP unreasonable, things must be very upside-down in your world!