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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask everyone in the UK to watch this NI documentary

326 replies

NornIronKid · 13/05/2021 10:08

You will (hopefully) be aware of the Ballymurphy Massacre, that has been in the news this week, when innocent civilians were killed by British soldiers in 1971. It has taken 50 years for the victims' names to be cleared of any wrongdoing.

There has been a lot of posts on here mentioning NI over the past years due to Brexit, and it has become clear that many people in GB are not aware of the history. This documentary is from 3 years ago and now showing again on Ch4 - it is a long, difficult but important watch

www.channel4.com/programmes/massacre-at-ballymurphy

OP posts:
Bloodypunkrockers · 13/05/2021 14:55

@Brainwave89

Agreed this was terrible. I am from Birmingham originally and when I return I see the families of the victims of the Birmingham pub bombings collecting to fund their legal fees to fight for justice. They received nothing, and the main suspect has a letter from the British government saying they will not be prosecuted as a result of the Good Friday agreement. Lots of innocent victims on all sides, but it is a fact that the IRA killed without remorse and in far greater numbers than any activity undertaken by the UK state.
And what does any of this have to do with what happened at Ballymurphy?
pinkearedcow · 13/05/2021 14:59

@Brainwave89

Agreed this was terrible. I am from Birmingham originally and when I return I see the families of the victims of the Birmingham pub bombings collecting to fund their legal fees to fight for justice. They received nothing, and the main suspect has a letter from the British government saying they will not be prosecuted as a result of the Good Friday agreement. Lots of innocent victims on all sides, but it is a fact that the IRA killed without remorse and in far greater numbers than any activity undertaken by the UK state.
Well maybe if the establishment hadn't swiftly and knowingly fitted up innocent people for the Birmingham pub bombings and instead concentrated on finding the real perpetrators, then those families might have had justice.
CourtAndSpark2 · 13/05/2021 15:05

@pinkearedcow, that's a fair point to make that some in the terrorist organization have been convicted, and served time. Many (most?) have not.

There will be no prosecution of British soldiers. It's just not going to happen, nor will it happen for Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. That's not how it works.

pinkearedcow · 13/05/2021 15:14

[quote CourtAndSpark2]@pinkearedcow, that's a fair point to make that some in the terrorist organization have been convicted, and served time. Many (most?) have not.

There will be no prosecution of British soldiers. It's just not going to happen, nor will it happen for Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. That's not how it works.[/quote]
Well 428 were released early under the GFA for a start, which indicates a fair few served time.

RuggerHug · 13/05/2021 15:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RuggerHug · 13/05/2021 15:26

This!!

ToffeePennie · 13/05/2021 15:48

My family members were shot at in Northern Ireland

UhtredRagnarson · 13/05/2021 15:53

@ToffeePennie

My family members were shot at in Northern Ireland
Confused

Mine were shot in Texas.

FuriousCheekyFucker · 13/05/2021 15:59

[quote CourtAndSpark2]@pinkearedcow, that's a fair point to make that some in the terrorist organization have been convicted, and served time. Many (most?) have not.

There will be no prosecution of British soldiers. It's just not going to happen, nor will it happen for Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. That's not how it works.[/quote]
Well, when there is unequivocal evidence that a crime has been committed, like the conviction of Sgt Blackman the Marine in Afghanistan who shot the injured Taliban then it will happen.

Problem is, its extraordinarily difficult to gather enough evidence that will support a conviction for murder or manslaughter, for various reasons. Doubly or even triply so for historical cases as we have recently found out.

The law of the land is that it must be beyond reasonable doubt.

CourtAndSpark2 · 13/05/2021 16:10

The Blackman case was an exceptional case. For those that are not familiar with the details see here: www.gq-magazine.co.uk/politics/article/marine-a

Of course the case mentioned in the documentary is nothing like case in terms of situation, deaths, etc.

DioneTheDiabolist · 13/05/2021 16:22

Was it murder/massacre? YES of course it was. Are these things prosecuted? Almost NEVER. That's the sad reality, and not just for our forces.

I fully realize this must be an awful thing for the victims families, but it is the truth.

None of the families are naive to that. But other truths were exposed in this inquest:

  1. It found the victims were "Entirely innocent". Until then they had been terrorists according to the government.
  2. 1Para acted without justification in murdering unarmed civilians in the Ballymurphy Massacre.

The actions of 1Para were not investigated, no one was disciplined. Five months later 1Para committed the Bloody Sunday massacre.

YouWerePrettyIWasLonely · 13/05/2021 16:48

My parents were from NI and left as trouble was starting. My father was very much of the opinion that as long as the Government ignored its part in the rise of oppressed people with less rights than livestock then there can never be peace.

Britain has a long long history of oppression against Ireland. They starved the people and called it a Famine. They brought in the Black and Tans to murder whomever they liked. They treated Catholics in NI as less than human. They brought in the army to oppress and murder them further when they were fighting for the same rights as the Protestants.

FuriousCheekyFucker · 13/05/2021 17:01

Right, I'm out.

As with every thread on MN which discusses NI, it descends into a Brit Bashing revisionist history thread rather than rational discussion on a way forward.

Which is exactly why the Province will be a fertile breeding ground for bigots of every flavour, it's the tradition of the place.

For those of you who haven't visited, you really should, Belfast is a lovely city with great nightlife, there are areas of outstanding natural beauty, the vast majority of the people are lovely, welcoming and warm.

Then get yourself a taxi to take you round some of the shitter areas of the place, enjoy viewing how certain sections of society love nothing more than taking the piss out of their neighbours over centuries old "victories", marvel at how organised crime is a blight on the place yet supported if the criminals are on the right "side", be amazed at how much money is spent on local government Commissions that decide who can walk down certain streets wearing quasi-military uniforms accompanied by bands, snigger at how people ask others to spell "hospital" so they can gauge which school you went to and therefore what your pedigree is, and then relax watching the UTV evening news to see how many folk were kneecapped this week.

CoolCatTaco · 13/05/2021 17:22

You're out because you lost the argument.

SueSaid · 13/05/2021 17:30

@CoolCatTaco

You're out because you lost the argument.
@FuriousCheekyFucker speaks sense i dont see how they 'lost the argument' at all.
nimbuscloud · 13/05/2021 17:32

I hope Majella O’Hare’s family also are successful in their attempt to have an independent inquiry into her death.
She was 12 years old when she was shot in the back by a British soldier while she was going to church in August 1985.
He was acquitted. Her family are still waiting.

nimbuscloud · 13/05/2021 17:33

August 1975.

FrippEnos · 13/05/2021 17:42

@CoolCatTaco

You're out because you lost the argument.
@FuriousCheekyFucker was one of very few that was trying to have a discussion.
UhtredRagnarson · 13/05/2021 17:48

and then relax watching the UTV evening news to see how many folk were kneecapped this week.

Are they visiting via time machine because that hasn’t been a thing on UTV news for quite some time.

newnortherner111 · 13/05/2021 18:06

Ballymurphy victims have had to wait 50 years for their name to be cleared.
Hillsborough victims had to wait over 20 years.
There is still no justice for Grenfell.

Those who died of Covid because of the inaction of our Prime Minister, or because people were moved from hospitals to care homes without testing, or because they were forced into work without adequate PPE. When will they get any justice?

RuggerHug · 13/05/2021 18:06

Ah the tansplaining is in full force now.

FaceyRomford · 13/05/2021 18:14

One point that gets overlooked is that the original British plan was to hand over all of Ireland in 1922. Retaining the six counties was a necessary and somewhat shady political fix when it became clear that Carson and Co wouldn't agree to it. The British don't care about Ireland. We've been trying to get shot of it for 100 years now.

ellyeth · 13/05/2021 18:15

I watched this when it was first shown a couple of years ago and have kept it. Before that, I had no knowledge whatsoever of the Ballymurphy Massacre and I don't think it was common knowledge amongst most people - which is shocking when you come to think about it.

I really don't get the argument that the IRA was responsible for the deaths of many people and it therefore seems to be suggested that the Ballymurphy massacre was just the luck of the draw.

The murderous actions of the Catholic and Protestant paramilitary organisations were condemned by most mainstream outlets and they were called terrorists. The army, on the other hand, is employed, in effect, by the government and is supposed to abide by civilised standards.

I do understand that when in extreme danger and under pressure it is possible for soldiers to make mistakes, but the killing of innocent people in Ballymurphy does not, I believe, fall within that category. The soldier who was in charge when this happened was also the man in charge during the later Bloody Sunday shootings.

As with many subjects around British rule, the British public has often been given a very one-sided story about "the troubles", and about uprisings in other countries subject to British rule. When I was a child news reports about the "Mau Mau" in Kenya portrayed them as murdering savages but a relatively recent court case found British soldiers guilty of the most extreme forms of torture against the Kenyan independence fighters.

FaceyRomford · 13/05/2021 18:16

Posted too soon

Churchill is said to have offered to return them in 1940 if the Irish Free State would enter the war. De Valera refused.

Fireflygal · 13/05/2021 18:38

@FuriousCheekyFucker,

I think you are wrong to be so negative and pessimistic.

The Government taking responsibility, being accountable and trying to put right the wrongs WILL move peace forward.

It's horrific that soldiers murdered innocent people however the subsequent cover up and denials acted as recruitment for terrorists.

Bringing truth to these historical dark days will help with reconciliation.

The Bloody Sunday apology helped so will this.