To ask everyone in the UK to watch this NI documentary

[NornIronKid]

You will (hopefully) be aware of the Ballymurphy Massacre, that has been in the news this week, when innocent civilians were killed by British soldiers in 1971. It has taken 50 years for the victims' names to be cleared of any wrongdoing.

There has been a lot of posts on here mentioning NI over the past years due to Brexit, and it has become clear that many people in GB are not aware of the history. This documentary is from 3 years ago and now showing again on Ch4 - it is a long, difficult but important watch

www.channel4.com/programmes/massacre-at-ballymurphy

I am glad we agree that recent, loyalist violence in Derry, in response to 2021 matters, has absolutely nothing to do with the Ballymurphy massacre and the legal findings of the inquest into it @FuriousCheekyFucker.

If you cannot leave events that happened half a century ago behind, and insist on picking at the scabs of old wounds, don't be upset when your children normalise violence, resistance to legitimate authority and distrust of the government.

The Ballymurphy Massacre is not an old wound. It never had the chance to scab. 10 normal people going about their everyday lives were murdered by British soldiers. Then they were smeared, called terrorists. That is how their funerals were reported across the media. Their families were filmed burying their "terrorist" son/daughter/father/mother/sibling. You might have been able to Let it go @FuriousCheekyFucker, but I think you would be in a minority.

The murderers and those who covered for them progressed in their careers. Why should the families of those murdered, or anyone else, see this as legitimate authority and why the fuck would they trust the government?

THE NI Secretary has now apologised in the House Of Commons for this incident, ergo it will be on record in Hansard.

Chances of moving on now? Zero.

Chances of this now being used as a socio-political stick to beat the drum of Republicanism with and indoctrinate more children with the politics of division? Very High, Gusting to Inevitable.

@DioneTheDiabolist

I am glad we agree that recent, loyalist violence in Derry, in response to 2021 matters, has absolutely nothing to do with the Ballymurphy massacre and the legal findings of the inquest into it *@FuriousCheekyFucker*.

If you cannot leave events that happened half a century ago behind, and insist on picking at the scabs of old wounds, don't be upset when your children normalise violence, resistance to legitimate authority and distrust of the government.

The Ballymurphy Massacre is not an old wound. It never had the chance to scab. 10 normal people going about their everyday lives were murdered by British soldiers. Then they were smeared, called terrorists. That is how their funerals were reported across the media. Their families were filmed burying their "terrorist" son/daughter/father/mother/sibling. You might have been able to Let it go @FuriousCheekyFucker, but I think you would be in a minority.

The murderers and those who covered for them progressed in their careers. Why should the families of those murdered, or anyone else, see this as legitimate authority and why the fuck would they trust the government?

Look, its a society that still honks on about events from the 17th Century and rubs their neighbours face in it - so anything from the 1970s is practically hot off the press.

I guess i'm just worn down about the whole matter - a society where all sides see themselves as perpetual victims and try to outdo each other on the woe is me scale.

There's more chance of me walking on Mars than seeing people leave the past behind in NI.

@FuriousCheekyFucker

THE NI Secretary has now apologised in the House Of Commons for this incident, ergo it will be on record in Hansard.

Chances of moving on now? Zero.

Chances of this now being used as a socio-political stick to beat the drum of Republicanism with and indoctrinate more children with the politics of division? Very High, Gusting to Inevitable.

You may be correct, but I hope you are laying the blame for that at the door of the British authorities and not at the families of murder victims.

'I guess i'm just worn down about the whole matter - a society where all sides see themselves as perpetual victims and try to outdo each other on the woe is me scale.There's more chance of me walking on Mars than seeing people leave the past behind in NI.'

Indeed.

There's more chance of me walking on Mars than seeing people leave the past behind in NI.

And yet 71% of us voted in favour of the Good Friday Agreement.

@MindyStClaire, and that's exactly what the core of the issue is, being unable to break the cycle of blame which feeds the cycle of division and hate.

Ironic isn't it, that both sides purport to follow a brand of Christianity, yet I see very little in the way of following Jesus' teachings about forgiveness.

There's loads people can watch if they want to learn and that channel 4 one is a great start (I watched it when it came out).

The Miami Showband massacre is on Netflix, Patrick Kieltys documentary is on YouTube. Unfortunately I think those that need to learn the most are the most resistant to it. Until he says it publicly I don't believe the Boris apology. People saying move on have no idea. The enquiry and other ones are people moving forward for justice.

Also, those saying Thatcher only cared when bombs started happening in London are right. Not because of English victims though, it drove up insurance costs for the buildings in the city and that's what was important, money.

It's only a tiny bit in the show(Ireland) but anyone interested in history of what Britain did in the past should check out Exterminate all the brutes on sky documentaries.

I hope the paragraphs worked on this otherwise it'll seem I've gone on a weird ramble.

[quote FuriousCheekyFucker]@MindyStClaire, and that's exactly what the core of the issue is, being unable to break the cycle of blame which feeds the cycle of division and hate.

Ironic isn't it, that both sides purport to follow a brand of Christianity, yet I see very little in the way of following Jesus' teachings about forgiveness.[/quote]
Because it just boils down to religion right?

@RuggerHug

Because it just boils down to religion right?

Erm, no? How did you make that leap?

What are the Irish supposed to do?

I don't condone what happened but I would like to know what they are supposed to have done.

I doubt many Mumsnetters know what it's like to fear a police stop, to know your police will be against you because of your name, accent and address, to be heartbroken for your children because their dreams will be cut to fit the same cloth, to always feel in the wrong in the eyes of the establishment and justice system, to be worried about having to give your name, to be asked for your primary school on a job application form and know you won't get the job if you put down the truth.

I didn't see many people blaming the BLM protests but the reality for Catholics in NI over the last century has been as desperate. The agreement made 100 years ago screwed over the Irish Catholic community still left in NI.

I wish Mumsnetters could imagine how it feels to know that the police could shoot you or your wife without the accountability that would follow if they shot a middle class Protestant woman. To live without the freedoms and protection of the establishment normally taken for granted in a democratic civilised society.

People don't understand the desperation facing certain sections of the community in Northern Ireland prior to and during the troubles. They tried to talk but weren't listened to.

If you suppress and oppress a part of society for long enough, you will eventually have a genocide or a revolution. There's no real morality about saying that, it's just the outcome as people do what they to survive and help their children to thrive. I wouldn't do it myself but do think it's an impossible position, to live with restricted opportunities, prejudice from the ruling class and a biased policing/justice system. And Ireland has had the genocide, albeit with a great deal of help from a potato killing disease. Their thinking is more extreme because of the atrocities in the not so distant past, understandably.

YA SO NBU OP. I watched that documentary when it first came out in 2018. It is so shocking, yet sadly not surprising. The Britsh Army did terrible things. The British police did too, so many innocent people were locked up.

@Slub

Lots of innocent civilians murdered by the IRA too. Do you have a link to a documentary on that?

And I suppose you have one for those murdered by "Loyalists"?

When people go to war, for good reasons or bad (because everyone thinks they have a good reason), then terrible things happen. Nobody is excusing that at all. But there is a difference. One does not expect so-called peacekeepers - professional soldiers acting on behalf of the government - to commit murder. That is true whether it is Northern Ireland, Afghanistan, or Iran.

The British government holds other governments to those standards. It cannot do so whilst committing atrocities themselves. We don't get to tell China they shouldn't murder Uighurs, or Myanmar that they can't shoot their own civilians, if we are guilty of doing it ourselves and cover it up when we do.

@RedTitsMcGinty

What does a whole lifetime of living like that do to you? What happens to a family, when someone they love was murdered?

We work and hope for peace.

Yes. I think it's time NI had some kind of truth and reconcilliation process that was funded and supported by the Govt. As many posters have pointed out, the Ballymurphy massacre was the murder of innocent BRITISH civilians by the British state. It was fuck all to do with the IRA.

I say this as a Brit by the way. (My experience of NI was part of the British Army, there's a whole other story to tell about the damage done by the experience of active service in NI). I find it genuinely upsetting how little most people living in the mainland care about these issues. "The Troubles" wasn't just the bombs that made the headlines, it was the lives of millions of people terrorised and disrupted and it's time that this story is told.

You are wilfully missing the point @furiouscheekyfucker. And you sound full of hate.
The British Army acting on behalf of the British state murdered innocent civilians and lied about it. This wasn't a case of both sides being as bad as each other. Just so you know, there were more than two sides...there was Republican paramilitaries, Loyalist paramilitaries, the British Army/MI5 (who had so many agents they now seem to have been running sides 1 & 2) and ordinary, innocent people. And it was ordinary, innocent people who suffered the most, not just in Ballymurphy but right across.

@FuriousCheekyFucker

Let it go.

Another case against the British Army was heard in Court last week and then thrown out, again. How many times do we need to keep reopening wounds.

It's the constant revisiting of history - this is now 50 years ago - that causes things like the little shitbags rioting in (London)Derry last month, as it prevents all communities from moving on from the past and dark days of the Troubles - because it is glorified and revelled in.

It's no comfort for the victims families I know, but the alternative is condemning another generation to more heartache.

Let it go.

Well this is hugely insulting and dismissive. OP thank you for raising attention on this, I wasn’t even aware of this incident until reading the promo stuff about this programme recently. Agree with PP that it is a huge failing of our educational system that we teach history of Britain and consequences of its actions, in such a woefully inadequate way that you end up with the sort of viewpoints seem on this thread.

[quote FuriousCheekyFucker]@MindyStClaire, and that's exactly what the core of the issue is, being unable to break the cycle of blame which feeds the cycle of division and hate.

Ironic isn't it, that both sides purport to follow a brand of Christianity, yet I see very little in the way of following Jesus' teachings about forgiveness.[/quote]
Look, I know what you mean here. And I vaguely know one of the Ballymurphy relatives and I Do Not Like her, I think her attitude borders on dangerous. I agree NI needs to move on - but I also think it is, slowly. My friendship group is mixed, this stuff pretty much never comes up, not because of awkwardness, but because it just doesn't feature. My atheist Catholic background children with their Irish names and passports will go to the local State (Protestant school), and many of their friends there will have gone to the lovely Catholic preschool down the road. I know loads of mixed marriages, more than not actually among our age group where both spouses are from NI.

Granted, my experience is a particular one of educated, financially secure, middle class people, but change is happening slowly (actually, not even that slowly in truth given the history IMO) and I do believe it is possible for NI to get there in time.

But wounds this deep take time to heal, it won't happen overnight. And the families of victims being murdered by the state getting an apology is the absolute least they deserve, not the time to be banging a drum about "both sides" and "moving on".

NI should be very proud of how far its come IMO, as an outsider who's lived here a long time now. But the Army shooting innocent civilians in the street should never be condoned or ignored, regardless of where those streets are or why the Army came to be there.

From the province. Won't be watching. Too raw. Grew up with twisted idea of normal. E.g. this 1982 news report
"gunman shot and seriously wounded a Protestant headmaster in front of his class of terrified children Monday"
www.upi.com/Archives/1982/10/18/A-gunman-shot-and-seriously-wounded-a-Protestant-headmaster/8733403761600/

Wasn't my primary school but close enough.

See also Pop Goes Northern Ireland series on BBC on iPlayer. Brutal.

Agreed this was terrible. I am from Birmingham originally and when I return I see the families of the victims of the Birmingham pub bombings collecting to fund their legal fees to fight for justice. They received nothing, and the main suspect has a letter from the British government saying they will not be prosecuted as a result of the Good Friday agreement. Lots of innocent victims on all sides, but it is a fact that the IRA killed without remorse and in far greater numbers than any activity undertaken by the UK state.

@Xenia

They are difficult issues and Ireland is doing so well with it all. I have nothing but praise. I do think both sides need to let the past go (and yes I do know who did what on each side).

What are the both sides you are talking about?

I worked in London during the Canary Wharf time, so have somewhat close to first hand experience.

The sad reality is that state/army forces do commit crime, murder, etc. They are almost never prosecuted. Our troops have done similar in Iraq and Afghanistan in recent times. It's what happens you send an army. It's not just us. We could say the same for the US, France, etc. That's what happens, and I'd say our troops likely have a better record than most.

Was it murder/massacre? YES of course it was. Are these things prosecuted? Almost NEVER. That's the sad reality, and not just for our forces.

I fully realize this must be an awful thing for the victims families, but it is the truth.

And, based on Boris latest statement, it looks like both republican and unionist murderers will be getting a free pass too. Again, that must be an awful thing for the victims families.

@CourtAndSpark2 The difference is that this is a crime committed by British soldiers within the UK

It’s seems a peculiarly British thing to refuse to accept that we’ve done wrong in the past. People are so blinkered and just don’t want to hear it. It’s actually embarassing.

@NornIronKid, I do appreciate the distinction you are trying to make.

Regardless of a difference or not, these prosecutions never happen, that's the reality (lest you think I'm defending it, I'm not, it was murder ... as with the republican/unionist terrorists).

And, based on Boris latest statement, it looks like both republican and unionist murderers will be getting a free pass too. Again, that must be an awful thing for the victims families

Many of those people have already served prison sentences for their actions. So no "free pass". How many British soldiers have been prosecuted and served time for their actions?