To ask everyone in the UK to watch this NI documentary

[NornIronKid]

You will (hopefully) be aware of the Ballymurphy Massacre, that has been in the news this week, when innocent civilians were killed by British soldiers in 1971. It has taken 50 years for the victims' names to be cleared of any wrongdoing.

There has been a lot of posts on here mentioning NI over the past years due to Brexit, and it has become clear that many people in GB are not aware of the history. This documentary is from 3 years ago and now showing again on Ch4 - it is a long, difficult but important watch

www.channel4.com/programmes/massacre-at-ballymurphy

Theses comments are predictable as hell. MN never fails to deliver. People literally don’t give, and don’t want to give, a fuck (to quote a delightful earlier poster). They don’t want to hear it OP.

People equating the innocent murdered to the IRA because what? Because they were in NI? Is that seriously the level some people operate at? They think N.Irish equals IRA = automatically guilty = deserved it because someone else somewhere was also murdered? It’s depressing the level of ignorance here.

This thread shows the ongoing ignorance of British people regarding the role of the British state in Ireland, particularly in the north.

Maybe don't make rude and ignorant comments about things you clearly know nothing about.

I know that your media has always presented a completely one-sided view of these matters, and the BBC continues to do that in many instances, and I gather that your education system ignores the matter, but maybe read a book or watch the documentary or do something to educate yourself on a matter before you talk absolute nonsense about it.

If civilians were murdered by British soldiers in the streets, with the media carrying stories fed to them by the British army that all those killed were in the IRA which was an absolute lie, then the matter isn't ever investigated and those who carried out the murders never face any accountability whatsoever, you know, it's hard to "move on" from that.

The British army was actively involved in the murders of civilians through Loyalist paramilitaries too. It's hard to move on from that.

I'm not sure why some British people, including some on this thread don't think that Irish people deserve the same basic rights as British people. In some cases, including some responses to this thread, it's clear that you don't seem to view us as quite human. It may be time to have a look at yourselves in that regard too.

If someone stands in your driveway, or cuts down a tree near your house, Mumsnetters are furiously posting threads about the injustice of it, but the British army murdering women and children in the street in the north of Ireland is fine. Madness.

If someone stands in your driveway, or cuts down a tree near your house, Mumsnetters are furiously posting threads about the injustice of it, but the British army murdering women and children in the street in the north of Ireland is fine

This is exactly how Mumsnet feels to me these days

And unfortunately it is those who would benefit the most from watching this documentary, that are those who won't

@NornIronKid

Disappointing but not surprising replies so far

That's because any army, or agent of the government should be held to a higher standard than organisations that are, depending on your point of view, terrorists or guerillas. And what ever your opinion of them if they were caught they went to prison with convictions for murder / manslaughter or other charges.The fact that the British army, with the approval of the government were able to murder British people including children and not only get away with it but not even be investigated for it is abhorrent, or at least it should be

Exactly what sashh has said here. I'll never understand why people think a legitimate army representing their country should be no better than terrorists

Absolutely agree, this. Accepting this behaviour from the authorities is one step away from a military dictatorship. I am from Belfast. I was filled with sorrow watching this documentary and detest the bitter history of my country of birth. It's a tragedy.

Apologies I tried to quote pp before but had a technical fail!

Some of the responses above are appalling and sickening. The Ballymurphy massacre was nothing to do with the IRA. It was 10 innocent civilians killed on the streets of the UK by the British army. Would you be okay with that happening on the streets of London? Ten innocent people shot dead? Unarmed civilians shot in the back and the face while going to help others?

If you have no compassion for the killing of innocent people then you’re scum.

Good post, @sashh and other subsequent posters. The whataboutery is depressingly predictable, even if the idea that a government should be held to higher standards than a paramilitary organisation seems to be a strange and unusual idea to others. Particularly when a more contemporary iteration of said government continues to make decisions which negatively affect NI.

I will not watch this documentary but I would be interested in watching a balanced one looking at both sides.

There are many sides not just two, you cannot fit everything into one hour so maybe consider looking at this documentary and the many others on YouTube, there are lots.

When the army first arrived they were greeted with cups of tea and biscuits in Catholic areas - maybe look at why that changed.

Oh and I don’t think the relatives of those killed by the IRA including children would give a shit whether they were a real army or not.

I do. If your child was murdered by the IRA you had a chance of seeing them go to jail, if it was a soldier then you had no chance of justice and your child would be slandered and called a terrorist.*

Many of them haven’t had justice either or had to see the killers walk free. The Good Friday Peace Agreement should work on all sides and I make no apology for that either

I agree the agreement should work on all sides, and that means a process of truth and reconciliation.

@DioneTheDiabolist

How many times do we need to keep reopening wounds.

The wounds didn't heal. Well, how could they when they were infected by the lies of the British state. The little shitbags rioting in (London)Derry last month were loyalists complaining about the border in the Irish Sea. Fuck all to do with the Ballymurphy Massacre.

Incorrect, they were kids put up to it to cause trouble for the authorities because their communities organised crime syndicate (of whatever flavour, they're two cheeks of the same arsehole) has been targeted by the Security Forces and the PSNI recently.

Do yourself a favour and educate yourself before showing your ignorance.

I lived in NI for two years in the 1970's as a child and at the time, I didn't think there was anything odd about my school bus being evacuated and searched by armed officers, bombs detonating outside myhouse (no one was harmed, so that's a good thing, right?). 40+ years on I'm having therapy for an issue that I thought was totally unrelated, but it turns out that my experiences as a 5 year old harmed me. That was just two years of my life, when I was too young to understand what was happening. Two years where no one I loved was harmed, and none of my family were personally affected. What does a whole lifetime of living like that do to you? What happens to a family, when someone they love was murdered? So much trauma, and so many lives ruined. OP you are most definitely not being unreasonable. Without talking about these things, people can not be healed.

@CoolCatTaco

Totally agree *@NornIronKid*. But they mostly don't care or seem to understand that the IRA weren't the state. The British Army were sent here to protect civilians, not murder them, slander them and lie about it for 50 years. They'd be more upset if the army had shot a couple of dogs. Same attitudes on display about Palestine. It makes me despair.

DING DING DING,

...and there we have the first likening of the Republican cause to the plight of Palastinians...

I've not lived in the Province for three years now, do the Loyalist areas still fly Israeli flags and the Republicans fly Palestinian ones to annoy their neighbours?

yes awful that innocent people were literally murdered.

i watched "the funeral murders" documentary on iplayer, i dont know if its still on there.

It was about UK Loyalist terrorists at the funerals of IRA terrorists and culminated in two young alleged off duty British Paratroopers who were lynched and flung around like rag dolls over barbed wire by IRA supporters.

The Vanessa Engles documentary on the funeral was very hard to watch. its crazy to think that even in the 90s, these crazy things were going on in N.I. Must have been a very scary place.

Conflict like it keeps on repeating over the world

On MN the Troubles was the IRA bombing London and Manchester. There is little to no understanding of what the people of NI suffered through (from Republicans, Loyalists and the British Army).

And yes, of course the Army should be held to higher standards than paramilitaries. @sashh is covering this more eloquently than I could hope to.

On MN the Troubles was the IRA bombing London and Manchester.

On MN the troubles was the Irish bombing London and Manchester.

Sad to see some replies here , the atrocities commited by members of the armed forces both North and South of the border are nothing but state sanctioned murder. How anyone can justify tax payers money being used to brutalise innocent people is beyond me. The anti Irish sentiment is still alive and well in the UK though , having been asked myself by customers several times at work if I am a member of the ira and if I have a bomb in my bag. Its all ignorance and arrogance though.

I'll be watching OP. I'm English, with an Irish parent, moved to NI last year and know very little about what's gone on. My husband has read a few books and passed one onto me but I'm ashamed to say I found it too hard going. I do want to understand though. Sad to see this thread is already descending into sectarian nonsense. The fact that both sides did terrible things doesn't mean the British army shouldn't be held to account.

I wonder if a truth and reconciliation process like the one in South Africa would help?
As an English person who didn’t visit NI until adulthood I’ve had a lot of readjusting to do - but even as a kid (and I was a kid) I knew Bloody Sunday was wrong. It is inexcusable that the Army did these killings and got away with it BUT - as I understand it, soldiers are trained in obedience about almost all else. Senior figures in the British State knew about and sanctioned these killings and then took part in the cover ups. Although individual soldiers pulled the trigger, going after them alone and not the commanders seems wrong. I don’t say that to excuse what happened - it was totally unacceptable.

I'm not from NI but I live here now and I am disgusted by some of the replies here - sadly they don't surprise me at all. I have also lived in London and learnt early on how ignorant people can be about NI and what was done by the British here. Those people that died were accused of being IRA members by the British government. Two of them appear to have been murder whilst trying to help others that were injured. None had guns and none had a history with the IRA.

Since living here I have heard so many horror stories of internment etc. The fact is that so many that were not involved with the IRA were arrested, tortured or had to escape across the border to avoid it. And many of these people had done nothing wrong at all. Mind you....some joined the IRA afterwards and to be honest, that's hardly a shock given what happened to them.

I am a Catholic and am dating a man from a Loyalist area btw. He doesn't want me coming to stay at his ever so has to come to me. He is worried my car will be burnt out for being a Catholic living in a Republican area daring to be in his town. That's in 2021. Things aren't that much blood better it seems.

What did the loyalist riots in Derry this have to do with the Ballymurphy Massacre inquest @FuriousCheekyFucker?

The best way to stop violent groups like the IRA coming into being is to not invade and oppress other countries in the first place. Just accept that what Britain did to Ireland was wrong. It’s not that hard.

What does a whole lifetime of living like that do to you? What happens to a family, when someone they love was murdered?

We work and hope for peace.

People really need to stop saying “both sides did terrible things” The people killed in the Ballymurphy massacre weren’t a side at war with anyone. They were innocent victims.

Historically, the British, and a few other European nations of course, have been some of the most violent and oppressive in the history of the world. Sadly this long and brutal side of Britain’s history is basically wiped out of the school curriculum. When it happens elsewhere we call it brainwashing.

Channel 4 are pretty credible aren't they? I will watch but I am a wuss at the best of times, so may not be able to stomach it.

You can’t compare killings on both sides when one side was the British army, the other a para military group. The army was sent there to try and restore order, not to massacre civilians.

Agreed. I don’t expect the British armed forces to murder innocent civilians no matter which conflict they are involved in.