To ask everyone in the UK to watch this NI documentary

[NornIronKid]

You will (hopefully) be aware of the Ballymurphy Massacre, that has been in the news this week, when innocent civilians were killed by British soldiers in 1971. It has taken 50 years for the victims' names to be cleared of any wrongdoing.

There has been a lot of posts on here mentioning NI over the past years due to Brexit, and it has become clear that many people in GB are not aware of the history. This documentary is from 3 years ago and now showing again on Ch4 - it is a long, difficult but important watch

www.channel4.com/programmes/massacre-at-ballymurphy

Covid, the union between Scotland and England was not forced on Scotland 'by invasion' .

I feel that , regardless of where you stand, anyone who kills anyone else, should be held to account.
That includes the armed forces, terrorists - both IRA and Republican, and anyone else who feels it’s okay to kill anyone else.
Agreements made to broker the Peace Deal, which allowed terrorists to be released from prisons and not be held responsible for their actions does not sit well with me.
Either every single person who killed someone, now has immunity from prosecution, or everyone is made responsible and must face the consequences of their actions.
I feel this what most people I have spoken to agrees with.
There were too many innocent people killed due to the troubles, both in Ireland and England, not everyone has been made to account for their actions.
All this will be do is continue to differentiate between who is justified in killing other people.
No one can possibly be justified in killing anyone else, either using guns or bombs.
I feel so bad for families who have lost family members due to the troubles, regardless of who they identify with.

God, so many appalling attitudes on display here.

For those of you saying not to "dredge up the past" - IT IS NOT THE PAST. IT IS OUR PRESENT. families who lost loves ones to murder by the British army, and to murder by terrorists and paramilitaries (both Republican and loyalist) - this grief is not the past. They are still living it now. Some posters seem to think it is something in the distant past akin to WWI that no-one alive remembers.

I am horrified that mention of innocent NI civilians murdered by the British government provokes responses like "yeah but what about the IRA? They killed people too! Stop trying to hide the truth!". Ffs everyone knows about the IRA. It's one of English people's favourite topics when talking about NI, in my experience. But mention atrocities committed by loyalist paramilitaries or THE BRITISH ARMY - then all of a sudden that makes me an IRA sympathiser.

It was honestly exhausting being at uni in England. The narrative that British state = good, Irish republicans = evil was placidly accepted, and then rabidly defended if even a suggestion was made that the Brits committed terrorist acts too.

It's the last part of the show(just so you're not sitting through hours of other bits).

The IRA were Involved in the ballymurphy massacre, they were there shooting along with loyalists and the army.

Link to your source?

The IRA refused to cooperate with the enquiry. What does that tell you

Again, link to your source? Incidentally, it would tell me that the IRA didn't have the confidence and trust to engage with a historically flawed and partial establishment, which I would understand.

People spout such claptrap on these threads.

@queenmeadhbh

God, so many appalling attitudes on display here.

For those of you saying not to "dredge up the past" - IT IS NOT THE PAST. IT IS OUR PRESENT. families who lost loves ones to murder by the British army, and to murder by terrorists and paramilitaries (both Republican and loyalist) - this grief is not the past. They are still living it now. Some posters seem to think it is something in the distant past akin to WWI that no-one alive remembers.

I am horrified that mention of innocent NI civilians murdered by the British government provokes responses like "yeah but what about the IRA? They killed people too! Stop trying to hide the truth!". Ffs everyone knows about the IRA. It's one of English people's favourite topics when talking about NI, in my experience. But mention atrocities committed by loyalist paramilitaries or THE BRITISH ARMY - then all of a sudden that makes me an IRA sympathiser.

It was honestly exhausting being at uni in England. The narrative that British state = good, Irish republicans = evil was placidly accepted, and then rabidly defended if even a suggestion was made that the Brits committed terrorist acts too.

So to go for some balance. How about the Ballymurphy shootings were a disgrace, as were those on bloody Sunday committed by British soldiers alongside the murders committed of innocent civilians in Birmingham, Manchester and many other places by the IRA? Many IRA terrorists now have an effective immunity from prosecution negotiated by the IRA. This is not the same for British soldiers, many of them very young at the time and under daily attack.

For the love of God! There is no doubt the IRA/UVF and all the other Republican & Loyalist paramilitaries carried out shameful atrocities. But they weren't the STATE. FFS

@Brainwave89 well yes that's a reasonable point of view to express. what I was giving off about was the knee jerk "WHAT ABOUT THE IRA SCUM WHY ARE YOU FORGETTING THEM" which is pure gaslighty whataboutery.

I would qualify your statement slightly though - murders committed by paramilitaries were horrific but I wouldn't call them a disgrace specifically. It's hardly a disgrace to the name of terrorism to be a terrorist. It is however a disgrace to the state for the army to murder civilians. The murders themselves aren't any worse of course, but the reason it upsets people is that the army is meant to protect its citizens and not only failed but betrayed that. Murder by terrorists and paramilitaries is atrocious but murder by the state is treacherous.

I do agree that the soldiers themselves were young and scared. I don't hate the soldiers or think they were personally motivated by hatred for Catholics. I do think the British army was rotten to the core and hushed up what really happened.

@CoolCatTaco

For the love of God! There is no doubt the IRA/UVF and all the other Republican & Loyalist paramilitaries carried out shameful atrocities. But they weren't the STATE. FFS

100%. I am really baffled that some people seem not to appreciate this. I can only conclude that they think NI citizens are not real people? Or that we're all ultimately violent IRA sympathizers? As PP have said I'm pretty sure if the British army started shooting at civilians in London they would be pretty outraged.

Agreed. I would favour a much wider truth and reconciliation enquiry which was the process followed in South Africa. There are some significant questions that the British state should honestly answer around Northern Ireland. Equally all victims should understand fully what happened to their loved ones.

Brainwave89. Don't you get the difference between terrorists and the British army?

@reprehensibleme

Covid, the union between Scotland and England was not forced on Scotland 'by invasion' .

Prior to the union what was happening? Was Engliand and Scotland at equal footing and with the same rights, resources and opportunity. Or did one side have any advantages or an upperhand ? After the union did each have an equal standing to make decisions? Today, scotland need permission to hold a vote to see if scotland wish to remain in or leave the union. (Disclaimer, this isnt about if scotland should or shouldnt be part of the union - its about the reality that they cant just choose themselves). There is history of war between scotland and England with scotland fighting for independence. So whilst our union was not forced by invasion it is small minded to assume the battles over scotland had no impact on the union and all the small details that mad eyo the union.

To put it a different way if your home was taken several times by force and oppression. Then you may well come to an agreement which would stop the need to fight and give tou a degree of stability. But do not fool yourself into believeing that agreement would be impartial the oppressor has the upper hand in any negotiation.

Agreements made to broker the Peace Deal, which allowed terrorists to be released from prisons and not be held responsible for their actions does not sit well with me.
Either every single person who killed someone, now has immunity from prosecution, or everyone is made responsible and must face the consequences of their actions

This

I lived through this and I have my own thoughts on this and the people involved.

This might be history to some but to a lot of people it was a big part of their lives for decades and the realities of living knowing you could get blown up at any moment every time you went out takes a lot more than a Lets be friends agreement to forgive and forget especially when this sort of documentary is brought up every few years.
If we are going to say forgive and forget then we need to move on or tear up any agreement

Until I saw the Ballymurphy documentary when it was shown previously (a year or so ago I think), I had never heard of this horrific event.

Are there any posters on here who were, like me, totally unaware of it until seeing the documentary?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme

@DioneTheDiabolist

That's interesting *@Arbadacarba*. What was covered in the module?

I was taught Irish History at A-level and I was until embarrassingly recently largely ignorant of almost everything that has been covered on this thread. They should've just called the unit 'everything you need to know about Gladstone and how he really tried his best'.

[quote Arbadacarba]@DioneTheDiabolist I believe it was framed as 'The Irish Question' and it took us through the origins of division in Ireland going back to the 17th Century, Oliver Cromwell, William of Orange etc. and then focused heavily on the early 20th Century - the Easter Rising and Lloyd George's partition. We were also encouraged to look at what was going on contemporaneously (1989 - 1990) and collate newspaper articles - and to debate the merits and demerits of the different things that were being mooted as part of the peace process.

It was a very interesting module, especially as it helped me to understand much better what was happening 'in the moment'.[/quote]
You were taught it much better than I was. Until I was, quite rightly, corrected on another thread I always believed it was the Irish Problem (not question) and it was taught as more of a study of Gladstone.

You were taught it much better than I was.

I remember the course as much more balanced than the media at the time, which tended to be all about the IRA - it was only through that course that I became aware there were also Loyalist paramilitaries.

Holy fuck! Only watching this on C4OD now. I am raging. Absolute scum.

And still most brits don't give a crap about Palistine.

Face your history

I'm just wondering for those who were taught The Irish Question what was taught about the civil rights marches in the 60s? The systematic discrimination?
I know in Ireland I were taught about the civil rights marches in America, the suffragettes, the marches in NI all around the same time. I remember my teacher framing it as if you hit a dog with a stick every day at first it will cower but eventually the dog will attack you.

The British Army are the biggest terrorists on the planet.

England really do like to bury their wee heads in the sand eh. Excuses and gaslighting rampant in this thread. Maybe do some Googling and see how your beloved army behaves and the attroticties it has committed.

Shocking that the day after the Ballymurphy verdict was delivered, paratrooper flags went up in the loyalist village a couple of miles from me.....

I did A level history in NI back in the 80s. We studied Irish history, but had to stop at 1922, as my history teacher pointed out, no matter how balanced he tried to teach the subject, someone would be bound to get upset (my school was mixed).

I don't remember hearing about Ballymurphy before this, but then I was only a baby. Weirdly, my mum in NI doesn't remember it either! . My mum says the narrative on the news at the time was very anti-Catholic, blaming the Bloody Sunday victims just for marching.

Anyway, I'm not sure if I will watch this, living through it was enough I think.

I think there is what history teaches us and there is lived experience

For me it was the IRA who affected my life more than the British Army.
If the peace deal was brokered and has held then no one should be held to account. If we want to go down the route of laying blame and bringing one side to account then all should be brought to account.

Are we not allowed to make documentaries now on what anyone other than the British army was supposedly responsible for. Otherwise there is no balance.