Why is MN so horrible to SAHMs?

[Sweak]

I'm sure this will go down like a lead balloon, but it's been bothering me.

Every post I see written by a sahm, no matter what her issue is, has at least 5 posters telling her she must get a job Or implying she's lazy and even worse 'contributes nothing.'

Lots of posts under the guise of telling women they need to protect themselves financially are criticising this choice (not always but many). I would never dream of criticising a mother for working so why is it acceptable to criticise those who decide to stay at home to be with their children? (I claim zero benefits fyi in case that's a suggestion). I accept that a very very long period out of work will leave you vulnerable if you split due pension, but 5 years or so? The pre school years...I don't think so. Obviously being a sahp is only going to work if you have a decent partner who shares income.

And finally so many posters implying that by being a sahm you are making it basically impossible to be employable ever again unless you run the PTA!

Full disclosure...I'm a sahm, and have been for four years, but I've decided to return to work. I've secured a job for sept (teacher), and got the second job I had an interview for so the suggestion sahm are making themselves unemployable for having a few years out doesn't ring true! However due to MN my confidence about getting a job was so low.

Can't we just support each others choices in life even if they differ to our own?

What is your ruler @Templetreebreeze ? What are you measuring outcomes against?

Let’s put it this way. If the outcome of my broken marriage was the role you describe for the male in your scenario I would be miserable.

I see it as a choice (obviously with different options depending on situation) but I see that for WOH too. We all know not all work is equal or freeing in the way it’s being described in many posts. There are dead end low paid jobs, there are risky jobs (eg arts and hospitality at the moment), and there are careers.

@5zeds

What is your ruler *@Templetreebreeze* ? What are you measuring outcomes against?

Let’s put it this way. If the outcome of my broken marriage was the role you describe for the male in your scenario I would be miserable.

I would be fucking furious ! My ruler as you put it, is that children are the responsibility of both parents. Providing for them, nurturing them etc Children need fathering ( if father/ mother) as much as mothering and by that I mean hands on. Other societies manage it perfectly well. With that we can scrap presenteeism in the workplace, long hours culture, introduce flexibility and reduce the abuse and vulnerability of women and children. Its not SAH vs WOH because however they do it women generally put their children first. Its about men stepping up , parenting their own children and doing their fair share domestically .

The real swindle, based on some of the boards on here, is women who marry men with children from previous relationships, a load of debt and apparently no desire to parent their own dcs. I see it so much on here.

"John has 3 children from his first marriage. He moved into my house and now I'm pregnant. He goes off for the weekend with the boys when it's his turn to have his DCs, so I've been looking after them, on top of working full time and growing a human being".

It's actually incredibly common. What do guys like this bring to women's lives? I'll never get it.

Just in reference to the conversation earlier, re men being outraged at the idea they might have to financially support their wife or partner if she has his baby, because; equality. But then childcare costs have to come out of the mum's salary only, because; traditionally childcare is women's work and I'm traditional that way.

Men sometimes cherry pick in which way they will be modern and in which way they will he traditionalists. See also living together and having DC's before getting married, but being horrified that the DC's might not take his surname and downright disgusted that his female dp might be the one to propose.

The thing is, it isn't equal. Many working women still get the shitty end of the stick at home. More caring responsibilities, more time out of work, so fewer opportunities to progress, more housework. I know that when I was working my salary was a percentage of DH's. I couldn't even cover our mortgage on my salary and we don't have a big house.

I'm lucky, in that I inherited some money, (although I lost my mum fairly young, which wasn't so lucky), and have more in trust. Also, DH is a medium-high earner and we are married. Yes, life would be tough and I'd be sad if he ran off with his colleague or whatever, but I would be very unlikely to be suffering a very low quality of life compared to the general population; ie it's unlikely I'd become homeless or starving. But, he has more potential to earn a bigger salary than I ever will. So, practically, him being able to progress at work while our DC's are small is more profitable for us as a family. Again, yes, I know, why should I be helping him earn more and more money when theoretically he could turn round and dump me some day. Well, because, he can earn significantly more than I ever could, for less time spent at work. If you're pragmatic about it, it makes sense for some women to stay at home. And, do I want to go back to work so badly that I'd take a financial hit for our family to do it? Nope! Or at least, not at the moment. Possibly, when our youngest starts primary school I'll feel differently.

I think it's more the posts that are, 'my partner and I have three kids, we are not married and i'm a SAHM - I was just wondering if I should let him buy a house in his name alone? My husband says this is for the best as I don't work. He gives me £8.50 for the week for all the kids clothes and to catch the bus as he takes the car round the corner to do his important job' and it's like COME ON shakes woman through the screen.

Those are the ones where I can be a little...blunt, but only because a man genuinely will not think twice about leaving you high and dry, even if you've given EVERYTHING to raise your children and it's...well stupid.

But, I have nothing but respect for stay at home mums, going to work is a break for me - I genuinely wouldn't be able to do it and I only have one.

Yes, I know lord. And again, the man would die rather than let his dp propose, or doesn't want to get married cos it's just a piece of paper blah blah.

Yes, it is s piece of paper in the same way your mortgage deed is dear. A rather important piece of paper.

Not saying everyone has to get married; won't get into that hornet's nest. But if you have DCs and are a SAHM and you're buying a house in your dp name...? That's quite bonkers. Unless you're independently wealthy obviously.

@LuckyMcDucky exactly. And my post isn't just aimed to stay at home mums, but it's normally them I see those type of posts from. You just know their partner's have a 'it's my money' mentality, which isn't okay when the SAHM puts their life/career/earning potential on hold to raise their children.

You just wish that everyone had the sense to just have something in place for what's rightfully theirs. I don't want to sound anti-men but you see and hear stories time and time again about cheating/affairs and the women having a choice of putting up with it or leaving with essentially nothing.

It's sad that a lot of protection comes from something as outdated as marriage.

Although, I think anyone can have a civil partnership now. So, if someone is genuinely against he concept of marriage and finds it outdated, but actually wants to offer their partner more protection, then there is that option. Or even setting up a trust or pension for their partner. But I wonder how many men like those we are discussing, would actually do that.

None of these things shitty men do to women are any justification for being shitty to SAHM....or parents in general. We don’t proudly tell low paid workers the implications of their choices. We don’t belittle and berate people in the same way at all.

Yes I agree 5. I don't think that's what we've been saying at all. I'm a SAHM myself.

@5zeds absolutely not what I am saying, I would never belittle anyone for the choices they make in life (as long as they're legal), it's none of my business what other people get up to, we are all different and if being a SAHM works then good on them! Genuinely, hats off to them, it's a tough job!

BUT if you're going to take a path where you're not earning and you have a partner who is, then you need to have some financial sense to protect your own personal future.

It’s a really complicated issue. None of the SAHMs I know (which is most of my friends, to be honest) are financially vulnerable. But when, on MN, people say “Your kids are in school, you should get a job, what the hell are you doing woman,” I’m just left thinking to myself, “Get a job.... ok, I haven’t even had a single night away from my family in 18 years.” And when they say, “Your DH should cut his hours,” where do you begin with that, when you don’t even know what his “hours” are?

If you have a husband who is essentially a workaholic as many are, it can be quite overwhelming in general and you end up (often unconsciously) trying to balance things out for the kids, if that makes sense? It’s not just the work they do, although that is enough, it’s everything else. For instance, my husband is around more now as he’s working from home much more. But for years he was often away in business or otherwise, various activities such as car racing, climbing and god knows what. Once when the kids were little, he went off to tun 100 miles in a desert and got so dehydrated afterwards he ended up hospitalised over there. Another time he had a climbing accident. There have been countless things and it’s stressful. Once we were on holiday in Greece and he suddenly had to fly to Germany or somewhere on business and I had 4 young kids wanting to go in a pool all day! It was only a couple of days, but still. He opened a boxing gym which, fair enough, my son and his friends use too, but it’s just another “thing.” He is cycling around the world in stages and goes off for at least a week for this every summer - this has been going on for at least 10 years. Plus all the other cycle rides he does and the car racing. Even though I don’t mind and I understand this is how he relaxes, I’m aware a lot of women probably wouldn’t put up with all this. But with 4 kids and all this life is very hectic, so I don’t feel guilty if I sometimes have some “me” time when they’re all out because the rest of the time I’m “on”. My husband is far from lazy, but I can’t really ask him to do much around the house because I have a cleaner and also I’m at home! So he has never vacuumed, for instance. If I was working, I’m not sure what would change and the only difference would be I’d be more exhausted, plus I’d have the extra job of managing some form of nanny or after school person which I’ve avoided so far because this is just an extra layer of hassle.

BUT if you're going to take a path where you're not earning and you have a partner who is, then you need to have some financial sense to protect your own personal future. as do people who do work, especially in jobs not careers. Why do you think SAHP particularly need to have this highlighted? Could it be that you believe you are just a little more clued up than your idea of a SAHP.

@5zeds I said both times that this isn't just a SAHP issue and a general one. I am just referencing the type of threads I commonly see, mainly from stay at home mums.

The question on here is 'why does Mumsnet?', so I'm referencing what I see ON MUMSNET. And the people I highlight it too are the SAHP who are asking ridiculous questions like I referenced above and are asking for financial advice. I really think you're reaching to be offended with what I am saying, at no point have a I said, 'a SAHP asked what type of spoon is best for porridge and I said FINANCIALLY PROTECT YOURSELF YOU MORON'. Obviously being a SAHP doesn't make you vunerable or financially senseless. You're just a person who has chosen to raise their children at home, and like I said it's something I applaud.

The thread is about why people on MN are rude/horrible to SAHMs. The excuse given is that they need financial advice.

Because they’re trying to do SAHMs a favour.

I was a SAHM mum for a decade, bloody loved it. Wasn’t financially vulnerable though. Back at work now and earn more than my husband. Some women leave themselves dependent though.

Because they’re trying to do SAHMs a favour.

@5zeds are you saying there has never been a SAHP asking for financial advice? And that's bad if everyone else if saying that, but I'm not saying that, firstly I hate anyone, or secondly I would hate someone for asking for financial advice.

Yes, they’re trying to do them a favour. And I speak from someone who took a decade out of work. Like I said I wasn’t financially vulnerable but if I wasn’t in my position I absolutely would have got my arse back to work. No way would I rely on a man for my security. Seen that go tits up too many times.

People asking for advice don’t tend to think you’re being awful when you respond with advice. Unsolicited advice offered because of a very unflattering stereotype however tend to make people think you are patronising and probably a dick. Women often come across incredibly patronising behaviour both in and out of work. Some don’t realise they’re part of the problem.

@5zeds

Yes I do agree. Guess it depends on who is giving the advice and how it’s given. I had a decade off and tbh I felt like I got a lot of jealousy off some women, who deep down probably would have loved the opportunity not to work, and to spend more time at home with their kids. I never personally asked them for advice or opinions on my choice. Just like I wasn’t that bothered about their choices.

However sometimes the advice is well meaning. Some women do leave themselves open to financial abuse so I guess there’s a lot of variables.

@5zeds

BUT if you're going to take a path where you're not earning and you have a partner who is, then you need to have some financial sense to protect your own personal future. as do people who do work, especially in jobs not careers. Why do you think SAHP particularly need to have this highlighted? Could it be that you believe you are just a little more clued up than your idea of a SAHP.

This is a very good point and where I'm from most mums have jobs not careers maybe that's why there's never any judgement from then in real life we all just get on with what we decide to do

On MN, posters always tell SAHMs they are financially vulnerable (again snd again and again). Despite some threads on here where women are clearly in abusive or short-sighted situations, I do think the vast majority of SAHMs have looked at the wider financial picture as it pertains to them (because that’s all that actually matters) and are probably no more financially vulnerable than the next woman (on average). But they keep being told they are because people repeatedly insist on applying their own circumstances or perceived stereotypes and extrapolating these as “fact.” Meanwhile, other potential pitfalls of being a SAHM, such as your life becoming subsumed into your husband’s or something like that, get lost in a slanging match between those giving “advice” that’s way too generalised to be remotely meaningful and those on the receiving end feeling misunderstood and patronised.

*Because they’re trying to do SAHMs a favour.

I was a SAHM mum for a decade, bloody loved it. Wasn’t financially vulnerable though. Back at work now and earn more than my husband. Some women leave themselves dependent though.*

In some cases the advice is well meaning. However this financially vulnerable line is trotted out so many times regardless of the circumstances or posters problem as soon as "sahm" is mentioned. As others have pointed out wohm can also be financially vulnerable and it's rarely mentioned. In fact some sahm are in a less vulnerable position than some wohm...as it depends on circumstances

Great your decade not working didn't lead to career suicide/making you highly unemployable like lots of posters have been suggesting!

Far too much generalising and blanket statements trotted out on MN like it's the gospel.

[quote LordOfTheOnionRings]@5zeds I said both times that this isn't just a SAHP issue and a general one. I am just referencing the type of threads I commonly see, mainly from stay at home mums.

The question on here is 'why does Mumsnet?', so I'm referencing what I see ON MUMSNET. And the people I highlight it too are the SAHP who are asking ridiculous questions like I referenced above and are asking for financial advice. I really think you're reaching to be offended with what I am saying, at no point have a I said, 'a SAHP asked what type of spoon is best for porridge and I said FINANCIALLY PROTECT YOURSELF YOU MORON'. Obviously being a SAHP doesn't make you vunerable or financially senseless. You're just a person who has chosen to raise their children at home, and like I said it's something I applaud.[/quote]
Totally this.
If you look hard enough for offence you will usually find it 😂
Mostly no one is giving anyone advice.

Often they are talking about their circumstances and say they went back to work because they were bored or wanted to ensure they were financially protected.

Cue screams of how dare you say SAH is boring or Im married to a squillionare type posts.