Why is MN so horrible to SAHMs?

[Sweak]

I'm sure this will go down like a lead balloon, but it's been bothering me.

Every post I see written by a sahm, no matter what her issue is, has at least 5 posters telling her she must get a job Or implying she's lazy and even worse 'contributes nothing.'

Lots of posts under the guise of telling women they need to protect themselves financially are criticising this choice (not always but many). I would never dream of criticising a mother for working so why is it acceptable to criticise those who decide to stay at home to be with their children? (I claim zero benefits fyi in case that's a suggestion). I accept that a very very long period out of work will leave you vulnerable if you split due pension, but 5 years or so? The pre school years...I don't think so. Obviously being a sahp is only going to work if you have a decent partner who shares income.

And finally so many posters implying that by being a sahm you are making it basically impossible to be employable ever again unless you run the PTA!

Full disclosure...I'm a sahm, and have been for four years, but I've decided to return to work. I've secured a job for sept (teacher), and got the second job I had an interview for so the suggestion sahm are making themselves unemployable for having a few years out doesn't ring true! However due to MN my confidence about getting a job was so low.

Can't we just support each others choices in life even if they differ to our own?

I have only ever said anything cruel to anyone on this topic when I sat next to this random couple at an overseas wedding I went on my own without dh and was pregnant at the time and feeling quite ill with it - anyway they literally goaded me all evening about my choice to be a sahm. They just wouldn’t drop it. On and on. When I put forward the other “side” I thought she was going to cry. Live by the sword die by the sword love.

@Sweak

This is how I feel about being told sahm are risking future financial security. It's bloody obvious to me if I don't work for a few years it's going to affect my pension!

It's a fair point. Although I'm not sure its as obvious for all as it may be for you.

Maybe we should sign a declaration to make sure all future SAHM/WOHM debates are conducted without use to cliches, specifically:

• you'll lose your pension
• you'll never ge the time back

And other No Shit Sherlock comments.

[quote thepeopleversuswork]@Sweak

This is how I feel about being told sahm are risking future financial security. It's bloody obvious to me if I don't work for a few years it's going to affect my pension!

It's a fair point. Although I'm not sure its as obvious for all as it may be for you.

Maybe we should sign a declaration to make sure all future SAHM/WOHM debates are conducted without use to cliches, specifically:

• you'll lose your pension
• you'll never ge the time back

And other No Shit Sherlock comments.[/quote]
I would love that declaration! 😂

One thing I do find interesting is that so many posters on mumsnet imply that women dropping hours or becoming SAHMs is a result of a misogynistic culture that forces women out of the workplace and into the kitchen.
I don't personally see it that way. It's an overhang from a society that saw men as providers and women as homemakers which is gradually shifting, but many many women actually want it to be this way. I work part-time and my partner full time so I'm one of these victims of a loss of career progression and pension hit, but I CHOSE that. And I'm very grateful that I get to do that. I'm sure he sometimes looks on enviously on my two days off and wishes the tables were turned.
I find it bizarre on Mumsnet how the general vibe is that women should feel hard done by because they are more likely to work fewer hours as most of the mums I know who have dropped hours or given up work have chosen to do so, not been forced. (Mumsnet required caveat - yes I'm sure some are forced too)

I think its six of one and half a dozen of the other TBH. Both sides have the potential to be spiteful and inflammatory. Some WOHMs make smug comments (myself included, probably).

I think this is true but the reason we don't see it is a) as lots of people have said, confirmation bias (I certainly stopped seeing constant condemnations of women working full-time when I stopped working full-time) but also
b) the antagonistic nature of AIBU especially. For some unpleasant reason people tend to set out to disagree with the OP, so if she says she's going back to work full-time she'll get horrible comments about why she bothered having a child, if she says she's not going to go back to work she'll get horrible comments about never working again and how her husband will grow to loathe her. People take it to a ridiculous extent - I was once on a thread where a handful of people were repeatedly telling the OP that she simply would not find it possible to work three days a week with young children, so great a logistical challenge would it be. This seemed to be just to upset her. But I - and I guess a lot of people - are more likely to click on a thread if the title describes our own situation, and on AIBU it means you get pages of posters saying what a shit choice you've made, which unsurprisingly sticks in your mind.

The problem is that some people clearly haven't thought about the No Shit Sherlock stuff.

Think about the threads where people are amazed that childcare costs money. To me looking at the cost of childcare is a No Shit Sherlock consideration, but some seem to get half way through maternity leave before realising maternity leave doesn't last forever.

Other No Shit Sherlock declarations should include:

• plenty of working parents do jobs beyond 10am-2pm during term time, so if you don't want to work, own the decision
• make sure child benefit is in your name
• marriage is not just a piece of paper
• consider your housing situation
• consider your pension provision, whichever route you take (eg if you want to be a SAHP, could DH pay into a private pension in your name?)
• have you explicitly talked to DH/DP about the fact children have 2 parents, and both should be doing their fair share of pickups and drop offs
• 2 working parents means both parents should be equally sharing domestic duties. Don't get pushed into working full time and doing everything at home whilst hubby does his hobbies

I'd count all those as no shit things to consider, but 10 minutes on mumsnets suggests not everyone feels the same.

I changed career after having kids because it was more flexible and meant apart from the very rare occasion we didn't need childcare. I think that was enough sacrifice from me, I didn't want to be a sahm.
I do think that staying at home for the first few years is very different to packing up work in your 20s and never returning to work.
I know sahms whose dc are now in their 30s who have not worked since having dc. Their choice but I do get a bit miffed when they say how lucky I am to be retiring next year

“on AIBU it means you get pages of posters saying what a shit choice you've made, which unsurprisingly sticks in your mind.”

I was just in a shop (by the way I’m rarely in shops these days unless I need to be - I feel the need to make that clear)! Anyway, I thought I’d get DH some trousers and I asked the shop assistant to help me find a size. This is what she actually said go
me - “It would be better if he came himself.” And then, “Is he a busy man then?” She asked me if he was a busy man three times (!) while she was putting the stuff though the till. She also asked me where I live. Maybe she was just being chatty and that’s what I’d think normally, but because of this thread, I found myself wondering if she’s one of those on the MN threads going “SAHMs are useless, I work in retail and there they are... in there facilitating men and buying their trousers blah blah blah.”

I think I need to step away from MN

@paloma10

“So what do they have/do that these sahm stating they had no choice but to give up their career don’t”

Some women do feel as if they had to give up their career because this is their husband’s expectation. I’m not saying he’ll tell her to SAH directly (though this happens as well obviously). The pressure can be quite subtle.

Quite often SAHMs are not sure whether they’re doing what they want to do or what they’re husband wants them to do and it’s not clear cut. Please do bear this in mind too.

Also not everyone has a husband they can just leave young children with. Not all men will do it. Some women do genuinely feel that they can’t leave their husband alone with babies or young children. Also not everyone has a husband who will work flexibly. I think some people have no clue on here sometimes when they say, “Oh just tell him to cut his hours and do x,y,z instead.”

This is absolutely spot on ! And ties in completely with the "How do you trust your DH comments" So glad I didnt marry a useless manchild but I certainly dont blame women who get stuck in these relationships either. They are doing the best they can.

@Drunkenmonkey

It's true that many women actively embrace working less or more flexibly. Or not at all. But this choice hasn't happened in a vacuum: its conditioned in part by expectations. It's notable how few men choose to work part time or be full time SAHPs. It can't all be down to biological hard-wiring. You can call that misogyny or societal expectations or whatever you like but its undeniably linked to traditional expectations of sex roles within the family.

The other point where misogyny comes in is that while there is much more tolerance of women being active in the labour force, there isn't generally a corresponding willingness of men to do a greater share of domestic and childcare work.

Think of that earlier discussion about how SAHMs are helping further their husband's careers because the husband can fly free, unencumbered by the need to make sure he's at home to relieve the childminder. Men who are ambitious are generally extremely reluctant to curtail their ambition to accomodate things like childcare and domestic work so this is still being done overwhelmingly by women: quite often women who out-earn their partner.

You say your partner looks on enviously at your two days off a week but would really willingly sacrifice two days a week to do childcare if your career really took off and you were under pressure to go FT?

So it might suit you down to the ground now to work three days a week. But if your career went really stellar and he flat refused to do pick-ups and drop-offs because he was also really busy and it was "your job", would you still be as chilled about it?

That's where the rubber really hits the road with misogyny nowadays, in my experience. It's on the home front.

@paloma10

“on AIBU it means you get pages of posters saying what a shit choice you've made, which unsurprisingly sticks in your mind.”

I was just in a shop (by the way I’m rarely in shops these days unless I need to be - I feel the need to make that clear)! Anyway, I thought I’d get DH some trousers and I asked the shop assistant to help me find a size. This is what she actually said go
me - “It would be better if he came himself.” And then, “Is he a busy man then?” She asked me if he was a busy man three times (!) while she was putting the stuff though the till. She also asked me where I live. Maybe she was just being chatty and that’s what I’d think normally, but because of this thread, I found myself wondering if she’s one of those on the MN threads going “SAHMs are useless, I work in retail and there they are... in there facilitating men and buying their trousers blah blah blah.”

I think I need to step away from MN

Quite honestly I have never bought a single item of clothing for my DH. If he wants or needs trousers/ pants/ socks he would go and buy them himself. I would find it utterly bizarre if he bought me clothes as well.

Honestly I think people are rude to those who choose to live on one wage because they want to feel good about their choices and do have regrets/doubts. I find that SAHMs tend not to be as outspoken as the other side and think that’s probably because most are happier with their choices as doing things differently to the majority usually means you’ve thought quite hard about it or there are reasons that aren’t apparent.

Quite honestly I have never bought a single item of clothing for my DH.
If he wants or needs trousers/ pants/ socks he would go and buy them himself.
I would find it utterly bizarre if he bought me clothes as well.

I find that bizarre.

DH is perfectly able to buy a pack of socks or tshirts for me or the kids!
He can hold a job, he can buy basics in the shops.

Paloma10 how weird.

I used to buy "generic"/ repeat clothes for various family members as I was on the high street due to my office being in town and I liked to get out at lunchtine or shop on a Thursday evening.

As a SAHM I did similarly. The shop assistant would have got no response to the passive aggressive digs.

My DH in turn buys me some run of the mill stuff when he goes on his twice yearly big shop at the out of town mall I hate.
We never shop as a family though I know others like doing this.
Who people can't live and let live I do not know.

Why people..

@motherloaded

Quite honestly I have never bought a single item of clothing for my DH. If he wants or needs trousers/ pants/ socks he would go and buy them himself. I would find it utterly bizarre if he bought me clothes as well.

I find that bizarre.

DH is perfectly able to buy a pack of socks or tshirts for me or the kids!
He can hold a job, he can buy basics in the shops.

I dont do his laundry either

Thread implodes

People doing different stuff shocker.

I dont do his laundry either grin

Same here. I'm so careful with my washing, I don't just separate based on colours, I also separate on types of fabric. I'd hate him to do my washing as he just bungs it all in. So he does his.

I would also hate anyone buying me underwear, mine has to be laser cut, white, no VPL etc.

@5zeds

Honestly I think people are rude to those who choose to live on one wage because they want to feel good about their choices and do have regrets/doubts. I find that SAHMs tend not to be as outspoken as the other side and think that’s probably because most are happier with their choices as doing things differently to the majority usually means you’ve thought quite hard about it or there are reasons that aren’t apparent.

Wow. Sweeping statements without evidence, ad hominem attacks, passive aggression and an implicit veneer of moral superiority. This is textbook WOHM bashing in sheep's clothing.

Who was it earlier who said the SAHMs tend not to be the nasty ones?

Of course it can be done but it is usually much easier to build a career or business without having any constrictions due to childcare
It’s easier to have children after your career or business has been stated, so that’s a choice in itself. You then have the choice of employing a nanny if hours are such that childminders/nurseries are not enough.

Yes, it is easier this way, but if you opt for easy to suit, it’s not a sa riff etc but a choice.

Quite often SAHMs are not sure whether they’re doing what they want to do or what they’re husband wants them to do and it’s not clear cut. Please do bear this in mind too
surely that’s a discussion you have before you have children. If a mum is clear she wants to continue with her career, they agree in advance how this will work. If her oh insists she gives up her job to support her and feel pressured, she finds a more compatible partner. Again, it’s her choice to have children with what in essence is an abusive partner.

@motherloaded

Quite honestly I have never bought a single item of clothing for my DH. If he wants or needs trousers/ pants/ socks he would go and buy them himself. I would find it utterly bizarre if he bought me clothes as well.

I find that bizarre.

DH is perfectly able to buy a pack of socks or tshirts for me or the kids!
He can hold a job, he can buy basics in the shops.

No way would I let DP buy me any clothes 😂 I can guarantee he'd get even the most basic instruction wrong. He can buy for the kids if he wants (he never does) as it's not me that will be wearing it!

I dont do his laundry either grin

Thread implodes

Do you have separate washing machines? We would need 2 if we did separate laundry! Or it would be constant arguments about the machine being used when I need it

Plus one of the massive positive of living together is to share the chores!

That's where the rubber really hits the road with misogyny nowadays, in my experience. It's on the home front.

Absolutely. There was a Harvard Business Review article very recently about how men could help women advance in the workplace. The headline message was, ‘Do More Laundry’.

Honestly I think people are rude to those who choose to live on one wage because they want to feel good about their choices and do have regrets/doubts.

And exactly the same could be said of people who are rude to those who live on two wages too.

Why else would anyone who was secure and happy in their choice to SAH, tell or otherwise infer that WOHM are inferior mothers, other than just being a nasty piece of work?

@FloconDeNeige

Honestly I think people are rude to those who choose to live on one wage because they want to feel good about their choices and do have regrets/doubts.

And exactly the same could be said of people who are rude to those who live on two wages too.

Why else would anyone who was secure and happy in their choice to SAH, tell or otherwise infer that WOHM are inferior mothers, other than just being a nasty piece of work?

This.

And people still insist that this is an exercise in beating up on SAHMs.