Why is MN so horrible to SAHMs?

[Sweak]

I'm sure this will go down like a lead balloon, but it's been bothering me.

Every post I see written by a sahm, no matter what her issue is, has at least 5 posters telling her she must get a job Or implying she's lazy and even worse 'contributes nothing.'

Lots of posts under the guise of telling women they need to protect themselves financially are criticising this choice (not always but many). I would never dream of criticising a mother for working so why is it acceptable to criticise those who decide to stay at home to be with their children? (I claim zero benefits fyi in case that's a suggestion). I accept that a very very long period out of work will leave you vulnerable if you split due pension, but 5 years or so? The pre school years...I don't think so. Obviously being a sahp is only going to work if you have a decent partner who shares income.

And finally so many posters implying that by being a sahm you are making it basically impossible to be employable ever again unless you run the PTA!

Full disclosure...I'm a sahm, and have been for four years, but I've decided to return to work. I've secured a job for sept (teacher), and got the second job I had an interview for so the suggestion sahm are making themselves unemployable for having a few years out doesn't ring true! However due to MN my confidence about getting a job was so low.

Can't we just support each others choices in life even if they differ to our own?

I was jealous of SAHMs when my kids were younger. Work was an absolute nightmare and the kids were miserable. Working did nothing to prevent me being trapped in a terrible relationship nor did it help me when I left as I had to flee and start over in whatever job I could get in a new location.

Why people think it is only SAHMs whose lives get trashed by abusive partners I do not know.

@DrSbaitso so really it’s about what women are doing with their time rather than anything else. Be a cleaner, a taxi driver, a cook, a nanny, absolutely fine so long as it’s NOT for your own children/partner?

Look, people don’t tend to outline their entire life stories in opening posts, so in the absence of further information, the standard cautionary advice about SAH is presumed to be relevant (and actually is relevant for most people). For some, the advice will be irrelevant and they can ignore it. For many others, it may well prove food for thought or even help them avoid a disastrous situation.

That anyone would want to suppress this advice being shared, as it doesn’t apply to them, shows an astonishing lack of either having a clue or giving a damn.

Also, it’s best to avoid castigating people for making assumptions about other’s circumstances and then do the exact same thing yourself. It tends to have the effect of making you look foolish. You’ve no idea about my personal circumstances, other than, at the present time, I am a working mother.

@LibertyMole

I was jealous of SAHMs when my kids were younger. Work was an absolute nightmare and the kids were miserable. Working did nothing to prevent me being trapped in a terrible relationship nor did it help me when I left as I had to flee and start over in whatever job I could get in a new location.

Why people think it is only SAHMs whose lives get trashed by abusive partners I do not know.

That’s such a good point!

Flocon - I have absolutely nothing to say about your situation. Nothing. I have nothing to say about any woman who works - why would I possibly presume to comment or make sweeping statements about that. There are billions of variations of working women, obviously. I wouldn’t declare who is “the norm” and who deviates from it. The same courtesy should be extended to SAHMs and women who work part-time and everything inbetween. That’s all.

Working did nothing to prevent me being trapped in a terrible relationship nor did it help me when I left as I had to flee and start over in whatever job I could get in a new location.

Imagine having to flee and not having had any employment history for the last, say, 10 years? How much harder would it be to get ‘whatever job in the new location’, then? A damn sight harder in most cases, that’s for sure.

Nobody’s saying that working is a panacea protection against all of life’s ills (having an abusive partner, for e.g.), but in the main, for the vast majority of people, it does provide some degree of buffer against potential financial destitution & homelessness. That’s funnily enough why many people, men and women, choose to do it - either wholly or in part. It’s not a coincidence.

[quote 5zeds]@DrSbaitso so really it’s about what women are doing with their time rather than anything else. Be a cleaner, a taxi driver, a cook, a nanny, absolutely fine so long as it’s NOT for your own children/partner?[/quote]
What? If you're in paid employment, you're not a SAHP by the accepted definition. It's a term used to describe someone who is not in paid employment because they are spending that time on family duties.

You could jump on parents who WFH and say, "Ah ha, but you're at home now too!" as if that proves anything other than the fact that the term isn't entirely accurate, but as long as that is the accepted definition - and it is - then no, someone who earns money working from home isn't going to be covered by the name SAHP.

I don't see what housework etc has to do with it. Was this intended for someone else? It makes no sense as a response to my last post.

I would love to hear the other side of these stories
I do not doubt one bit that there are two sides of the story, but the bottom line is that these men were not happy with their wives decision not to work and there are probably not the only one.

Yet here we always here about how it suits them all because they don’t have to do anything at home assuming that they indeed do nothing (and conveniently forgetting about the gardening, diy, and other tasks more traditionally male) in the house or that if they don’t, it’s because their wife don’t work and would be happy to share otherwise.

There is nothing wrong about being a sahm at all when it is genuinely makes both parties happy and both are happy with the consequences in case of separation.

It’s easy to say that sahm are fully aware of the consequences yet you just have to go to the divorce forum to read that it does come as a shock and bitterness to many when it happens.

Imagine having to flee and not having had any employment history for the last, say, 10 years? ... Nobody’s saying that working is a panacea protection against all of life’s ills (having an abusive partner, for e.g.), but in the main, for the vast majority of people, it does provide some degree of buffer against potential financial destitution & homelessness.

Totally agree with this

YABU

@Whatsthescoop

Wah, wah, wah Why does mumsnet hate sahm? Why does mumsnet hate working parents? Why does mumsnet hate breast feeding? Why does mumsnet hate formulary feeding ? And repeat weekly. People have different options, some people are just arseholes. Try posting on a section more tailored to the subject you will get more support generally. Aibu is for entertainment, the other boards get more well formed repiles &.advice

I agree with @Whatsthescoop, the “why does MN hate” posts are frequent and are everything to do with the various posters’ own insecurities and/or interpretation/internal bias. If I want to find criticism or even sometimes downright nastiness about the sort of person I am or what I represent or do for a living etc I can guarantee I’ll find it here somewhere. There are always people who haven’t got the imagination to understand that others make different choices or find themselves in different circumstances and those that are angry and critical because they are not particularly happy with their own lot and that’s not confined to MN.

However from what I’ve seen most of the comments about SAHPs are about possible financial vulnerability and is mostly in response to posters who have been put in a risky position (not joint tenants in the mortgage, no access to bank accounts etc). These aren’t criticisms though they can be slightly patronising sometimes, possibly without meaning to be. Other than that I see no more criticism of SAHP than of any other “group” but I do see lots and lots of women to women supportive posts here and I have really had some amazing support and kindness here in the recent past from people who I imagine are from all walks of life.

Good luck with your job in September @Sweak

Do any of you think men tear each other down and debate their life choices? I doubt it.

This comes down to there simply not being the same pressure on men to be stellar employees AND be there for their children at every juncture. If we could recognise that impossible expectations are being placed on women, then that would be a good starting point for discussion. No matter what we do, we're 'failing' according to someone.

Yeah, men get on so well. It's women who can't get along with each other.

I think in the U.K. these days it’s something like 70% of women are working at any given time. So SAHMs are in the minority, sure and there are obvious reasons for this which hardly need stating repeatedly. Financial security for women and most families these days need two incomes - no shit Sherlock!

So why are the 30% of women not working. Are they all dim, short-sighted women who need to be told by certain posters of MN, “ you are making yourself financially vulnerable” ad infinitum on every thread? Are they just dense or lazy with no comprehension of life? Or might there possibly be something more to it than that?

Of that 30% of women not working at any given time, there will be some who can’t work due to illness; some who are carers within their own families; some who have SEN children; some on maternity; some who are trustafarians; some who are ex-pat; some who don’t work for cultural reasons; some in abusive marriages; some who don’t need to work because of wealth and some who are taking a few years out while the kids are young. All of them SAHMs and all with their own reasons for being a SAHM. There will also be women who don’t work who don’t even have children.

So it’s fine to make the point once about potential financial vulnerability, but when a poster replies “yes thanks, I’ve already considered that ... “ just let it drop! Don’t keep banging on and on about financial vulnerability and dismiss anyone who is not financially vulnerable as “not the norm.” SAHMs aren’t the norm anyway these days. But the ones who are are likely to have good reasons for their choices and you just have to take their word for it. They don’t owe anybody an explanation anyway.

@DrSbaitso

Yeah, men get on so well. It's women who can't get along with each other.

😂

you don't need to go further than local FB groups, or any social media

Both that all mothers are judged for everything and context plays a role. Outside of AIBU like this, SAH most often comes up on MN in Relationships when shit has hit the fan and the risks that come from SAH tend to be biting someone hard.

Yeah, some people are nasty about it, just like some people are nasty about working out of the home with young children or any number of other things about mothering and won't let their idea go no matter how it's been answered -- but disagreeing with a point of view or asking questions isn't automatically being nasty or 'unsupportive'. I've had the most support when having my thinking questioned. It can be done kindly, though not always on here.

Yeah, a lot of people struggle to get back into work after a gap, especially if it also requires a change. My spouse was the SAHP for several years before I was hospitalized and we chose to switch. He did some freelance, but It took him a few years to get back into FT employment in an unrelated area that gave him the flexibility he wanted. We don't regret our choice, we still view it has having benefits, but it had risks, some of which bit us hard when my health nosedived in a way we couldn't have predicted. The transition was rough.

There is also the issue that the definition of SAHP has become narrower - it used to be fairly common at least where I'm from for an at-home parent to take in some work to do in the house, or do a bit of "lunch work" out of the home with older children and still largely call themselves the housewife/SAHP. My spouse sold art while he was at home, but still called himself a SAHD, that's how he saw himself, that was his main thing to him, being the at-home parent, even when he was also my carer. Now all the things an at-home parent may do is quanitifed to give another label. It's weird, I don't quite get it.

And yes, he did get some nasty comments from other men. More than once he had another man, some coming up to him in public, to tell him he should 'make' me come home so DP "could" work as if he wasn't living up to his male status in our household if I was working. He also had women who would use him as a punishment threat in sometimes the worst ways (saying he'd stole our children and was going to steal them if they didn't behave, it really upset him). I also had women tell me it was either a feminist victory he was at home or how terrible it was I providing for him to stay at home. We get fewer of those now its the other way around, but then I'm out less to get them than he was and my at-home work is a bit more recognized so I'm seen as a WAH parent instead, even during periods I'm not well enough to work that much.

MN has millions of users so I think saying MN is horrible about this or that is a huge generalisation.

With that said, the worst thread I have ever seen on here was 2 or 3 months ago from a woman who was approaching the end of her maternity leave with her first baby but was pregnant with her second, so would be going off on maternity leave within three months of returning to work. She wanted to put her eldest in nursery at the age of 1 and return full time for those three months because otherwise her maternity pay for her second would be reduced - plus she was a qualified professional who enjoyed and valued her job. But a parent or other relative had criticised her for wanting to go back full time.

She got pages and pages of ‘why did you bother having children?’ (which, apparently, is a totally acceptable comment to make to a working mother).

So based on that, I really wouldn’t say working mothers get showered with kindness and sympathy on here either!

So it’s fine to make the point once about potential financial vulnerability, but when a poster replies “yes thanks, I’ve already considered that ... “ just let it drop!
It depends what else follows.
Where someone says "I've considered that and DH is paying into a pension pot/savings in my name" or "I've considered that, but I've got my own assets and DP has added me on the house" or "I've considered that, but it's ok because I'm using the time off to retrain in another area so I can work flexibly in future" etc then people tend to back off.

When the reply is "I've already considered that and DP says not to worry because he'll never make me and the kids homeless" / "I've spoken to DP about that and he said his pension is enough for us both so I don't need adding onto it" / "I've already talked to DP and we considered (insert measure that would offer more financial protection) but he said (insert excuse here) and he's a good guy", the responses are very different. Some posters might 'bang on' and this point because they see a woman who is making herself very financially vulnerable based on their DP's empty words, that conveniently have him holding all all cards.

It depends what else follows ...When the reply is "I've already considered that and DP says not to worry because he'll never make me and the kids homeless" / "I've spoken to DP about that and he said his pension is enough for us both so I don't need adding onto it"...the responses are very different

Exactly and to be honest, a lot of the responses are like this.

It's part of a bigger issue too. Pension poverty for women is a huge problem and I'm shocked at how little attention it's given. That's not unique to SAHMs at all, but taking the decision to come out of the workforce entirely, even for a short time, has a huge impact and needs to be acknowledged and planned for.

The first time I ever posted on MN years ago, it was something to do with my husband and his mother, but the entire thread switched to being about the fact I am a SAHM . It was so very very odd. I was called a poor role model for my kids and one poster said I was effectively a prostitute. People were saying my husband was abusive because he doesn’t do housework like theirs does. Also he was abusive because he does too many hobbies and x,y,z and is therefore controlling. Also he was bound to be having affairs, so “get your ducks in a row” and photocopy everything. This is what I had and it went on for about 40 pages, calling me deluded. I only posted about MIL and a holiday.

All of them SAHMs and all with their own reasons for being a SAHM

Don’t be so ridiculous; of course the ~30% (of women not in employment) aren’t all SAHMs 🤣🤣 Absolutely laughable. The 20% of men who aren’t employed aren’t all SAHDs, are they? 🤣

Most of that 30% will be 65 and over, with most of the rest being in education or temporarily unemployed. Only a very small number will be SAHMs.

Crikey. I hope you’re not really managing your DH’s diverse investment portfolio as otherwise, the two of you are looking at a bleak old age!

Yeah, men get on so well. It's women who can't get along with each other

I meant in the context of childcare etc

It’s also not uncommon to assume that going back to work after 5 or more years won’t be a problem, when the reality is that many feel totally removed from the world of employment, have lost their confidence and can’t imagine themselves ever working again. The longer the years the harder it is to feel confident enough to return to work.

I meant in the context of childcare etc

Surely it's easy to see why though? There's much less expectation on them to to 'it all', they aren't being set up to fail the way women are and therefore don't tend to feel defensive or insecure about their choices.

I think it depends on the definition of a stay at home mum too. If you have a husband that can support the whole family on just his income without benefits being accessed then a lot of people will view that more favourably and as a reasonable life choice compared to a woman that is actually just unemployed and in receipt of benefits.