To think Scotland will now get their independence in next few years after election result?

[wishiwasabraverman]

Just that really...SNP did absolutely brilliantly. Shows that the majority of the Scottish people are behind them. Am I right in thinking they will get their independence in a couple of years?

@UrAWizHarry if we’ve learnt anything from brexit it should be that making irreversible decisions via referendum without being able to answer fundamental questions is a stupid thing to do

[quote Vetyveriohohoh]@UrAWizHarry if we’ve learnt anything from brexit it should be that making irreversible decisions via referendum without being able to answer fundamental questions is a stupid thing to do[/quote]
Yes to this

Looking externally, it seems like it would be a very stupid decision. You get huge amounts of funding for services, few natural resources (the oil is gone sadly) and culturally you are essentially English anyway. As always, these decisions will be made the majority in the south east (who pay/sustain your services with little complaint!)

If there was an independence vote for England to leave the UK I think that Leave would win by a bigger majority than Brexit did.

Before the last Holyrood elections, I spoke to an SNPcanvasser on the doorstep, and he was very honest with me - he said that the SNP didn’t want to hold another independence referendum, until they know they can win it decisively (better than just 51% for/49% against).

I can’t see that this will have changed since then - frankly I think Nicola Sturgeon is stuck between a rock and a hard place - she needs to keep the fiercely pro-independence members of her own party onside, so she can’t say “no referendum until X” because they could vote her out as party leader - but equally she does NOT want to hold a referendum she can’t win - it would be disastrous for her own career and for the independence movement (more disastrous than losing one indyref) - so she is having to do a real balancing act between these two.

I voted No last time, and would vote No again - I believe strongly in the Union, and in my identity as British. I found the last indyref campaign to be horribly divisive and nasty (as a No voter, I actually felt afraid to declare my opinion, and I know many other No voters felt the same) - and I don’t think the wounds of the last indyref have healed at all.

I also find it deeply hypocritical of Nicola to say it would be us democratic of Boris to ignore the democratic will of the Scottish people when she and the SNP have systematically and completely ignored the democratic will of 55% of the Scottish electorate, pretty much from the moment the last one’s result was announced.

I think Scotland will have another referendum - and I think that the whole neverendum rolling into a referendum campaign will harm and slow Scotland’s recovery from Covid. But I think that, if there is another referendum, some things should be different from the last one.

Firstly, if Scotland is to become independent, it should be because an overwhelming majority of voters want it - ie. in excess of 60% in favour of independence. A 51/49 split would mean almost half of Scottish people being dragged out of the Union against their will, and that would be very damaging.

Secondly, I think the question should be neutral - last time those in favour of independence were campaigning for a Yes vote, and those of us opposed to it, for a No vote. All too often the Yes campaigners made jibes about the negative nature of the No campaign, but I would argue that it is much harder to campaign positively for No, because No has negative connotations.

I think the ballot paper should be something like this:

I want Scotland to be independent. [ ]

I want Scotland to remain in the United Kingdom. [ ]

I also think that there should be a third option - Devo Max (properly spelled out, of course).

@UrAWizHarry

You know that, post independence, there will still be elections, right? Tax and spending will be set by whichever party is in power at the time.

And actually, I haven't come out and said I support independance without question. I support Scotland's right to self-determination, and that is not the same thing at all.

You just said we can't ask the above questions because we don't know the answers. But how can we make a decision based on nothing? May as well flip a coin and be done with it. Neither side is informed going by that.

I don't like changing something just for the sake of it, or because of biased opinions about England. If it isn't known to be a better outcome, then I'm not willing to take the chance, it's too much to risk and potentially playing with people's lives.

While part of me wants Scotland to leave to put a blame on Tories for braking the Union, the other more logical part says it's a very bad idea. The economic consequences will be even worse than for UK after Brexit.
What legally, logistically and economically make sense is Irish unification. It can sort out many problems they are facing now.

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius

Further devolution would have to come at the expense of scrapping Barnett.

and culturally you are essentially English

Not to be rude, but get to fuck.

@goldenshoe

Like a pp I agree with a lot of what Gordon Brown says too, but I diverge in thought in that I don't think we will be able to achieve a more progressive and inclusive society as part of the RUK. My union supporting friends all have the same goal as I do, we just disagree on how to get there.

I think it's an appalling time to be talking about another indieref, but I'll vote yes if it comes to it. I also tend to vote Labour when I can so by no means an SNP voter, for all of you pointing out that a vote for the SNP isn't necessarilya vote for independence - it can work the other way too.

Exactly. All my family up in Scotland are labour voters but they are all pro-independence. They want an independent Scotland but want the ruling party to be some form of Scottish labour. Also, turnout may be higher in an independence referendum (which it usually is). Many people who might be strongly pro-independence might have interest in voting in referendum but not a Holyrood election like last Thursday. The vote on Thursday was for the governing party, not a referendum on independence. In most cases, party and independence preference will be aligned but not everyone who votes SNP wants independence and not everyone who didn’t vote SNP is pro-union. With a hairline between yes and no, it could go either way. Lots of people will reach voting age over the next few years and they tend to lean towards independence. There’s only a cigarette paper between Yes and No. Even a year is a long time in politics. Many upsets and surprises and things can happen which can change alignment. The deviation only needs to be a few percent either way.

Timing is going to be the biggest factor which way the vote is going to go. It’s in Boris Johnson’s interest to reluctantly grant a referendum when the No sentiment is polling at its highest and vice versa for Nicola Sturgeon. She’s not going to set a date unless she is confident Yes has a realistic chance of winning. She’s not going to call one when Yes/No is polling 50/50 or 48/52.

@SofiaMichelle - I can’t say I know the details, but I’m sure you are right - but that would be part of defining DevoMax - Scotland would get XY and Z extra powers, but would loose Barnett etc. As long as people can make an informed choice, I see no reason why DevoMax shouldn’t be an option.

In the past Scotland was valuable for supplying soldiers, and more lately oil. Now they are a just drain on limited resources.

I agree with pp SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius on this -
Firstly, if Scotland is to become independent, it should be because an overwhelming majority of voters want it - ie. in excess of 60% in favour of independence. A 51/49 split would mean almost half of Scottish people being dragged out of the Union against their will, and that would be very damaging.

A majority of over 55/60% with the provision that if the result is over 50% in favour we could hold another ref within 10 years. Seeing how divisive brexit has been, I think it must be a supermajority for independence.

What I don't get is the division and hatred that some mumsnetters seem to have had directed towards them during the last referendum, it makes me feel quite sad and it's not a Scotland that I recognise. Many of my friends and family were no voters and they didn't get the abuse that mumsnetters seem to have had. And I wore my 'English Scots for Yes' badge with pride!

@Captpike

"and culturally you are essentially English"

Not to be rude, but get to fuck.

My exact thoughts to reading that! There's some amount of pish on Mumsnet sometimes.

So like Westminster dragging us out of the EU completely against our will then? Scotland may aswell have not been included in that vote.

I cannot wait for independence. Scotland and England are too different now politically as the last result shows. There can't be a union when we are so divided.

This online resource makes for interesting reading and may be relevant and helpful here for those of us south of the boarder to ascertain a deeper drive as well as balance into the Scottish debate for a more informed open viewpoint:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_people

[quote Vetyveriohohoh]@UrAWizHarry if we’ve learnt anything from brexit it should be that making irreversible decisions via referendum without being able to answer fundamental questions is a stupid thing to do[/quote]
..but some of those questions can't be answered without a commitment.

The EU weren't going to waste their time negotiating a full brexit deal without a commitment to leaving the EU. Other countries weren't going to negotiate trade deals without a commitment.

Maybe the answer is a confirmationary referendum once the details are in place, but then that still risks wasting literally years of negotiation time and millions/billions of pounds if the electorate change their mind.

@ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia that figures. My mum was from the western isles and always felt a Norse heritage rather than anything else.

@AlabamaSong

Looking externally, it seems like it would be a very stupid decision. You get huge amounts of funding for services, few natural resources (the oil is gone sadly) and culturally you are essentially English anyway. As always, these decisions will be made the majority in the south east (who pay/sustain your services with little complaint!)

Well done on squeezing so much utter shite into so few words.

WouldBeGood That's a random collection of suggestions. More associated with our current government... Though I'd probably wait to move till after they are back in Europe, to be on the safe side

@IsThisJustLife ?

@UrAWizHarry, you should be nicer to your English overlords. Remember who pays your bills 😉

@Morgan12

So like Westminster dragging us out of the EU completely against our will then? Scotland may aswell have not been included in that vote.

I cannot wait for independence. Scotland and England are too different now politically as the last result shows. There can't be a union when we are so divided.

It's called democracy. Lots of English people didn't vote for it either. Some Scottish people did vote for it, over 1million of them in fact. Do their opinions not count because its not the same as yours? All it would have taken was 600,000 more voters in scotland to vote leave. Now considering that only 2.6million people voted on Scotland, and there was just under 4million registered to vote, can you be sure those remaining people would all have voted remain? What if the majority voted leave? Then Scotland wanted to leave too.

Democracy sucks when you don't get the result you want. Great when you do. But it's fair and goes by what the majority want. The majority wanted leave. Suck it up. If remain had won, would you be happy with another referendum, just to check? Doubtful. Can't push another referendum on us for independence, same principle.

@Morgan12

So like Westminster dragging us out of the EU completely against our will then? Scotland may aswell have not been included in that vote.

I cannot wait for independence. Scotland and England are too different now politically as the last result shows. There can't be a union when we are so divided.

How would we stop being divided if we had independence? You would be dragging 50% of the population out of the union that don't want independence. We will be even more divided especially when reality hits

@Morgan12

So like Westminster dragging us out of the EU completely against our will then? Scotland may aswell have not been included in that vote.

I cannot wait for independence. Scotland and England are too different now politically as the last result shows. There can't be a union when we are so divided.

How would we stop being divided if we had independence? You would be dragging 50% of the population out of the union that don't want independence. We will be even more divided especially when reality hits