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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is modern life 'worth it'?

332 replies

MrsTroutfire · 09/05/2021 20:18

Obviously, not an entirely 'serious' question as I doubt many people would want to live in the conditions our predecessors did 200 years ago with limited healthcare etc, and it's not likely that society will change anytime soon anyhow.

However, I drive a lot for my job and have a lot of time to endlessly ruminate over the universe. One thing that I always return to is the fact that as a society we work the majority of hours in a day, the majority of days in a week, the majority of weeks in a year, and the majority of years in our lives.

Then, in our mid/late 60s, with our youth decades behind us, we then finally get the freedom to spend our days as we wish, finances and health allowing. If you're male, the likelihood is that you'll probably have worked for over 40 years without a single month away from your work environment, as most people only get a few weeks leave each year and paternity leave still isn't really very common.

I'm pretty sure this was never planned and just evolved that way, but when you look around your place of work and think "this is the majority of my life" it's not a great thought!

Of course life was much tougher in previous centuries, but people were mainly trying to survive. Nowadays it seems like the main purpose of work is churning profit. Even with financial difficulties abound I don't know many people who literally have to worry about survival.

So I sometimes wonder what we actually spend our entire lives working for. No doubt, the machine would stop turning if a huge proportion of the population ceased to make and spend money, but in some ways it seems the system runs us nowadays rather than the reverse, in the sense that money was originally created as an alternative to barter, but is now the principle determinant of quality of life (health issues aside). For example, food may be plentiful, even going to waste, but that's no longer the issue as you'll still starve without the money to buy it (whilst I still appreciate that there has to be some alternative to bartering/swapping of physical goods and a currency is necessary).

It seems like we create new unnecessary technologies, and in turn a market which needs workers to populate it, and this keeps future generations in employment, but at the cost of moving ever further away from subsistence.

Of course people don't want to give up their OLED TV's, iPhones, game consoles, foreign holidays etc, and I don't either tbh. But then a part of me reflects that most people just seem happy to 'play the game' and are so involved in the various aspects of their lives that they don't consider that the biggest sacrifice most of us make is spending the vast majority of our life doing something that we don't really want to and which isn't ultimately necessary for survival in the truest sense.

I'm defo waffling now, but I'd love to be able to contrast our society against a parallel one where our focus has been on prioritising the bare essentials such as food and healthcare etc and people spend a much bigger percentage of their lives actually living them rather than sitting at a desk. Of course they wouldn't have all the gadgets and toys we have but they wouldn't know any different - hell, perhaps in a hundred years time when teleportation has become a thing, people will wonder how we stayed sane only leaving our country 1-2 times a year rather than daily!

OP posts:
flapjackfairy · 11/05/2021 09:21

What a great thread. I love these kinds of debates .

motherloaded · 11/05/2021 09:33

then I'm going to buy a house with a garden, get rabbits and a dog, and only work a few days a week. The rest of the time I will spend with my parents, doing hobbies, or in the garden.

nothing wrong with that, and you would probably hate what I enjoy, so no judgement.

For me, this kind of life might be ok when I am in my 70s, but this is not what I want to do now.

I am all for working 4 days a week (especially paid 5), but I want to keep the same lifestyle! My job bring absolutely nothing to the good of society but it's fun and pays well.

(some) People only start to think about slowing down and having a calmer lifestyle in their late 40s and 50s and are not always realistic. It's a bit like people downsizing: they picture the same house with less rooms, they don't realise it means smaller rooms throughout..

zigaziga · 11/05/2021 09:47

I don’t think you are BU at all but then that’s why I am a SAHM. We have enough money from one income and the whole family is happier this way and less stressed. Often on MN you see people saying that they would never give up work to stay at home but I guess often when I read these comments I realise how profoundly I disagree as I believe wholeheartedly in the working to live rather than living to work thing.

One set of family friends we have have an even less stressful set up still where the wife is a SAHM and the man earns a decent amount however he is well qualified and could probably earn a lot more but he is happy where he is and doesn’t chase promotions and has a pretty easy life really - he is able to do the school run a fair amount with his wife and they’ll take their time enjoying the morning without rushing home to log on at 9am. He is probably quite “lucky” in that not lots of jobs would pay enough to support a family of 4 with so little work but I think the crux of it is really that he has a professional job requiring post graduate qualifications and basically just stopped trying to impress or go for the next promotion at the point at which he felt like his salary was enough.

BogRollBOGOF · 11/05/2021 09:50

When I went travelling through some very economically poor parts of Asia, it struck me that the poorer the place, the stronger the family connections and religious/ spiritual ritual. Life is undeniably harsh in those conditions, but there is support and connection. Work and family life are more intertwined. Life was more like that in pre-industrial Europe.

Last year, families were struggling because of the expectation to continue working professionally from home while delivering a very prescriptive curriculum to children.

Traditional subsistance work was more seasonal. Bloody hard work in the summer, but more time to rest in the winter. The nature of jobs would also vary. Jobs would have a more definite process and finished outcome. Many modern roles lack satisfaction because of being a small part of an outcome that often isn't seen.

We have freed up time... so we fill it. Admin became quicker to process by computer... so businesses/ the government created a data culture which often detracts from the main core of a role's purpose (speaking as an ex-teacher, and that's not unique to teaching). Parenting has become more intense and firmalised, no turfing children out to play and entertain themselves, more ferrying around to multiple activities for their development benefits. Automating laundry means people can obsess over having clean sheets at least weekly.

Humans aren't very good at sitting still and doing nothing!

Our work/ life balance got out of hand and I stopped working after DS1's first year at school. I filled my time more with volunteering, several mornings in school, youth groups (one I'd already been with for years) life was pretty decent. Probably too many fingers in different pots, but enjoyable. Then March 2020 happened. The complete lack of external purpose and social connection has been hideous. It's an incredibly inhumane existance. I'm grateful that we've remained physically comfortable, but being busy and purposeful has carried me through other hard times far more easily.

I'm not romanticising life in the past or in developing nations, but we have lost some of our ancient coping strategies along the way that have been shared through millenia through seperate cultures. That should be telling us something about their value.

VictoriaLudorum · 11/05/2021 10:45

I think a lot of modern life has become overly "complicated". There seems to be much more paperwork to do than 25 years ago plus the ordinary individual is under a great deal more scrutiny than in the past. This latter makes me feel quite uncomfortable.
On the other hand, I would be happy if all the dots joined up and were used to prevent or solve crimes, but this does not appear to be the case.
I am very thankful that my husband and I did all the adventurous travelling we wanted to do before he died, nearly 20 years ago. Whilst I have missed not going on my annual jaunt since 2019, I am resigned to restrictions in that area.
I am not convinced that people are healthier than they were either, look at the figures for obesity, allergies, diabetes etc. The human race just "knows" more now, which can contribute to "curing" things, but does not champion prevention.
The 24/7 bombardment with (mis-) information does not enrich my life at all to the extent that I mostly do not watch the news and only skim the newspapers. Luckily I am old enough not to worry about things over which I have no control or influence, but I can understand that some people have real issues with processing all the useless information that bombards them.

jesusmaryjosephandtheweedonkey · 11/05/2021 10:51

It's all about doing what is personally important and financially possible.
I have everything I need and I can pay the bills and go on holiday every couple of years.
I have a social life and enjoy the freedom of a 3 day working week.
My children are now adults and I was able to step back from the daily grind and just re evaluate what was important to me .

TheLastLotus · 11/05/2021 10:56

@BogRollBOGOF definitely agree about the lack of community and social connection.
The internet gives us the illusion of being more connected but that’s only true in terms of helping sustain connections.
In most cases people for example play a game with random people online, that’s ‘social’ but they’re not really friends are they? When there are so many options people just flit instead of putting in the time to build friendships.

MoreAloneTime · 11/05/2021 11:13

It's very hard to build up a sense of community when you work long hours. I can imagine in the past when you lived alongside those you worked with it happened more naturally, though I'm sure it must have been claustrophobic to some. We also at least seem less dependent on others, I remember my single working life feeling very isolated.

garlictwist · 11/05/2021 11:22

I work part time and don't have children. I chose to do this because I hated working full time. I felt like I never had any energy and the weekends were spent catching up on sleep.

I am lucky that I earn enough to support myself (just!) and can split the bills and mortgage 50/50 with my other half. I could not afford to do this if I lived alone.

I do sometimes worry that my pension is going to be small but right now I don't care. I would rather live frugally forever than earn more, spend more and feel fucked all the time.

My working week is finished on Wednesdays and in the summer I head off cycling and running and camp out. I feel like I have lots of adventures and time for myself. I would really hate to go back to working full time and hope that I never have to. I realise I live a very selfish life.

EvilPea · 11/05/2021 11:25

I made the absolute best of my children first 4 years, as it is the only time they will have freedom.

However, they don't remember it

Needhelp101 · 11/05/2021 11:32

Great thread. Debates like these are why I like Mumsnet.

I spent years attempting to work for myself and did finally achieve it. I'm lucky.

ssd · 11/05/2021 11:32

Humans aren't very good at sitting still and doing nothing!

Dont know about that....Grin

DrinkFeckArseBrick · 11/05/2021 11:33

I can see both sides.

I loved my childhood, the freedoms etc and dont think it would have been enriched by social media, on demand tv etc. We have almost gone too far in that we have given kids the means to sit on their arses all day and bully each other in new ways. I think being a child now is really pressured. And I miss that community spirit with everyone popping in and out of each others houses in the neighbourhood all the time.

But in terms of work life balance at that time if you were a woman you gave up work when you had kids or you went back early full time to further your career, or you stayed off til they were in school and took an admin type role. My dad tells a story of when a colleage asked for the day off because his wife was giving birth he was told by the boss 'what's it got to do with you?'. I think nowadays you can work reduced or compressed hours and there is much more flexibility

TinyGlassOwl · 11/05/2021 11:41

I wasn't going to come back to this thread after effectively being accused of racism yesterday but I found my 17-year old ds reading Happiness by Richard Layard this morning which I thought was appropriate!

For anyone who is interested in the idea of whether happiness has or hasn't increased since our lives became, ostensibly, easier and more comfortable, it may be worth a read.

Also Action for Happiness has some interesting things to say about the connection between happiness and economic growth, social connections and mental health.

thepeopleversuswork · 11/05/2021 12:50

I loved my childhood, the freedoms etc and dont think it would have been enriched by social media, on demand tv etc. We have almost gone too far in that we have given kids the means to sit on their arses all day and bully each other in new ways. I think being a child now is really pressured.

I agree with that and one of the things I like least about being a full-time working single mum is the extent to which my DD defaults to screens when I'm busy. If there is one thing I regret about working FT (and there isn't much), its that I have to leave my DD to her own devices quite a lot.

I really like working FT and wouldn't change it. I realise thats in large part due to the fact I enjoy my job and that not everyone has this luxury. But I can't help feeling that trying to de-emphasise the importance of work in our society is not the right solution.

Work has brought so much freedom and value to women's lives in so many ways: independence, choice, money, autonomy, political participation, better living standards for their children. I do think we ought to find ways to work in a less demanding and draining way such as a four-day work week etc but I'm uncomfortable with the idea of de-emphasising work in women's lives.

thefallthroughtheair · 11/05/2021 13:07

What a great thread! So many interesting posts.
A pp mentioned the book 'bullshit jobs' earlier. Of course lots of people have 'meaningful' jobs but it does feel as though an increasing percentage of us are just on a hamster wheel creating wealth for a smaller and smaller number of people, and that that wealth-creation often also seems to involve unsustainable models of economic growth. The bullshitness of jobs is everywhere too - it's not just or even mainly about the less well-paid, repetitive type work. The specialisation needed (or maybe not) in an increasingly professionalised and technical world can really take away from feeling like you're doing something worthwhile. So there was a point just for example when a lot of solicitors could be a bit 'jack of all trades'; now there are so many methods, procedures, precedents all written by someone else 'high up'. It's the opposite of empowerment really. Same with farming - increasingly industrialised so you only have to know about 1 particular type of thing, rather than having a holistic approach, and again, there's a disempowerment because you are in hock to the behemoth of the global industrialised food chain.
All sorts of perfectly good reasons for this relating to efficiency etc but there are side-effects too. More scope for feeling like an exceedingly small cog in a very very large wheel.

ThinkAboutItTomorrow · 11/05/2021 15:09

If you read Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari there's a whole section on why the move from Hunter gatherer to farmer was a terrible move for humanity.

"Rather than heralding a new era of easy living, the Agricultural Revolution left farmers with lives generally more difficult and less satisfying than those of foragers. Hunter-gatherers spent their time in more stimulating and varied ways, and were less in danger of starvation and disease. The Agricultural Revolution certainly enlarged the sum total of food at the disposal of humankind, but the extra food did not translate into a better diet or more leisure. Rather, it translated into population explosions and pampered elites. The average farmer worked harder than the average forager, and got a worse diet in return. The Agricultural Revolution was history’s biggest fraud."

zingally · 11/05/2021 16:22

I live a pretty frugal life. I'm careful with my money, and keep a pretty tight rein on my finances, in order to "save for the future". But something I've been wondering about lately...
When does the "future" come? When is that moment that you can start to spend some of the money you've so-carefully hoarded?

TinyGlassOwl · 11/05/2021 16:43

Well, indeed @zingally. No pockets in a shroud, as they say...

TheLastLotus · 11/05/2021 17:06

@zingally the way I think about it there’s any number of ‘catastrophic’ or ‘unforeseen’ events like death of a spouse, disability etc that could wipe out your savings. But if that happens all the money you have won’t be enough anyway.
So for me I have a savings goal based on what I want and spend the rest. But I’m certainly not planning to retire early! Have Insurance policies to ensure that in the event of anything happening I’ll have a lump sum used to pay for care but otherwise carpe diem

duffeldaisy · 11/05/2021 17:29

The thing that has changed working habits in the past is Unions.
The first workers' unions (which went on to form the Labour Party) fought for and got things like set holidays each year, weekends, maternity and then paternity leave, sick pay, etc etc.

If you want to change the world then join a union (there are general workers' unions if your particular field doesn't have one) and put forward things like wages that are easier to live on, or push for a 4 day week.
If enough of us do it and vote for progressive parties, then we can change the way we and our children live. We don't have to have a 5 day week. If we had a 4 day week with the same pay, it would open up more job opportunities for part-time work to fill the 3 day gaps. It would allow couples to share childcare more easily, or spend more time unwinding & so lead to better mental health, less of a bill for the NHS and so on. The rewards would be endless.

I agree with you OP, and I think questioning these things is great.

Ticklemycarpets · 11/05/2021 17:35

Great thread. I've been pondering the same for most of my adult life.

Donitta · 11/05/2021 17:38

Life has never been easy or enjoyable for most people. In the past people would work 6 days a week for up to 16 hours. We actually have more free time nowadays because we only work 5 days for 8-10 hours.

Olu123 · 11/05/2021 17:52

You are right. I’m Nigerian and always wish if the British never colonised us which in turn exposed us to the western way of living, I would be happily running around barefoot in the forests, climbing trees without a care in the world. (Looks again at the Chanel bag I’m working desperately to be able to buyConfused)

duffeldaisy · 11/05/2021 17:55

@EvilPea
"I made the absolute best of my children first 4 years, as it is the only time they will have freedom.

However, they don't remember it"

Lol, this!!! We went on trips, took them to zoos, all sorts of places - and do they remember it?! No! LMAO.