To be cross with our childminder?

[ranging]

Name changed.

DD has been going to the same childminder since she was 8 months and she is now 2.5. She absolutely loves it there and she's very kind and friendly, I get lots of crafts home that DD does and they go out and do a lot.

DD is going through a challenging phase, not doing as she's told, very stubborn, sometimes hitting and biting.

When I picked her up on Friday, the childminder said that she had taken her shoes and socks off in the car and was refusing to put them back on, so she took her out the car and put him on the (wet and muddy) ground in her bare feet and told her basically that's what you get for not putting your shoes on. She apparently got upset by this and then finally allowed her to put her shoes back on.

I was a bit taken aback by this, AIBU to tell her I am not happy about this at all? I'm not sure if this is an ok tactic to use with a toddler but I never would and don't want anyone else to treat her like that either.

@EarringsandLipstick

Being a parent makes you know better?

You're quoting me out of context (unsurprisingly).

I put 'know better' in quotes because Betty was being snarky about how I should publish a paper as I & Pumper 'know better' (so I was quoting her).

I don't know better than other parents here, who can give their views, like me. But I do 'know' as much as anyone else, based on my experience as a parent.

Betty is under the misapprehension that she knows more than others & retorts sarcastically & bitchily to posters not in agreement.

Waltzing is under the impression that you and Pumper stating that children can’t understand at 2.5 is groundbreaking because it is groundbreaking.

You can be as snarky as you like, but that’s what you’ve both said and it goes against everything that’s ever been published so far.

So you should publish.

OP, pandering to children will not change their behaviour. It will only facilitate it. She did the right thing. I've done similar in the past with my kids, how else do they learn the consequences of their actions if they aren't shown them?

@EarringsandLipstick

It was in response to you saying it was just a child taking off their shoes.
The taking off wasn't the problem it was the refusing to put them back on that was the problem. And yes you probably could put them back on but as many people will have found out a toddler that doesn't want shoes on will pull one off whilst you are putting the other on. By doing what the CM did the child made their own choice to have their shoes on with the minimum of fuss and then presumably ran around playing and enjoying themselves without a long drawn out tantrum or a long spell in the buggy.

the thought of my daughter being uncomfortable or cold isn't a pleasant one.

Christ you're in for a rough ride when she starts school. What will you do when she has to do PE in the rain?

Betty is under the misapprehension that she knows more than others & retorts sarcastically & bitchily to posters not in agreement.

Nope I'm under the apprehension that I know more than pumper this is evidenced by her inability to answer any of my questions and her self admitted lack of knowledge.
What's your evidence that this is a misapprehension @EarringsandLipstick ?

You simply refuse to answer the questions I've asked you whilst claiming superiority.
I have made I such claims

By that same reasoning they also cannot learn by an adult lifting them into a potty when they want to wee

Well, that's right, they can't.

But if physiologically they are ready to exercise control over going to the toilet, this provides an opportunity for them to learn, accompanied by support from the care giver & positive reinforcement.

Once more with feeling, the child did not choose to walk on wet ground, when they might have learnt they prefer their shoes. They were punished by the CM by being put there. The child had no connection between the 2 events (shoes / cold ground), prior to it happening

@JustLyra

I can’t see the ones I missed, and I’ve asked @WaltzingBetty several times to repost, and I’ve taken loads of insults along the way. Do you want to do it?

Do i look like your PA?

You’re also still not understanding that Waltzing said that you are unable to answer, not that you didn’t answer.

You didn’t miss them. You just couldn’t answer them.

Wait, how much more of this am I expected to take - you’re having a go at me for not answering questions pages ago, for not trawling back to look at them, when I’ve said I’m very, very willing to answer them. And now you’re on your high horse about being my PA?

If that poster had a strong enough argument for being such a dick to me, they would have reposted the questions. I’ve been very clear about my qualifications to be on this thread, I’ve answered several shitty posts and I haven’t retaliated once.

If you want me to answer anything, I will. I don’t know how much more accommodating I can be to posters who have called me stupid and repeatedly said I don’t know what I’m talking about with and repeatedly made up posts I didn’t say. It’s ridiculous.

Nope I'm under the apprehension that I know more than pumper this is evidenced by her inability to answer any of my questions and her self admitted lack of knowledge.

I'm not seeing this at all

I don't see where Pumper has failed to answer questions. Where is her 'self-admitted lack of knowledge'?

What I do see is your pretty horrible posting style. It's clear you don't want any actual engagement. I'll leave it there!

I would totally do this! Great lesson for toddler to learn!!

@Pumperthepumper You’re still totally missing the point. Completely and utterly.

But if physiologically they are ready to exercise control over going to the toilet, this provides an opportunity for them to learn, accompanied by support from the care giver & positive reinforcement.

But how can they learn if they're being unnaturally lifted by an adult and Pumper has clearly stated toddlers can only learn naturally?

How does this learning differ from learning that when you choose not to wear shoes your feet get cold?

How can positive reinforcement work when Pumper has already said that toddlers aren't capable of learning from operant conditioning?

How does one situation result in learning and the other does not?

@WaltzingBetty

Neanderthals would have had bladder control past a certain age though. Not from birth - if you’d punished a Neanderthal baby for not having bladder control it would change absolutely nothing. It still wouldn’t have bladder control.

No one has suggested that. I'm simply challenging your assertion that toddlers can only learn from consequences that occur naturally with no adult interference - like spilling a bowl of cereal.

You said they cannot learn from an adult lifting them into cold ground when they want to be barefoot

By that same reasoning they also cannot learn by an adult lifting them into a potty when they want to wee

Oh god, I really have tired of you making shit up. They can’t learn natural consequences if an adult interferes with that natural consequence. So for that PP, if an adult had tipped that kid’s cereal up, would that child have learned not to run with cereal? No. If you punish a child for not being potty trained, will it learn to control its bladder? No. If you punish a child for not putting their shoes on, will it learn to put its shoes on? No.

I’ve answered several shitty posts and I haven’t retaliated once.

I agree Pumper & applaud you! Night. 👋

Have skimmed a few pages of responses. It is utterly disgraceful treatment by the CM. Unacceptable punishment not natural consequences. Has a sadistic feel to it that is deeply concerning. I would find someone new immediately.

I’m done with this.

Clearly pumper and earrings are the only people whove ever worked with kids, who have kids and who know anything...

The rest of us don’t have a clue (despite 6 kids and 20 years working with children and being highly qualified in my case). And it’s perfectly fine for them to rudely and patronisingly disagree, but anyone else retorts then it’s unfair and nasty...

I look forward to the groundbreaking publication when it comes out 👍🏻

She demonstrated why we wear shoes and socks in a way that a toddler could understand. I don’t think it was a punishment!

Your childminder sounds very capable.

@WaltzingBetty

Betty is under the misapprehension that she knows more than others & retorts sarcastically & bitchily to posters not in agreement.

Nope I'm under the apprehension that I know more than pumper this is evidenced by her inability to answer any of my questions and her self admitted lack of knowledge.
What's your evidence that this is a misapprehension @EarringsandLipstick ?

You simply refuse to answer the questions I've asked you whilst claiming superiority.
I have made I such claims

Again: post the questions I’ve missed or pack this in. You’re really not covering yourself in glory here.

[quote JustLyra]@Pumperthepumper You’re still totally missing the point. Completely and utterly.[/quote]
What point? What am I missing?

How does one situation result in learning and the other does not?

It's been explained over & over.

The child did not choose to walk on cold wet ground with no shoes & learn through this experience (like cereal-carrying child)

The child was lifted out of the car onto cold ground, and is unlikely to have made the association between the 2 events.

In my opinion.

For every post about this, you've cherry-picked & twisted the posts. You don't want to understand (even if you disagree).

@EarringsandLipstick

Nope I'm under the apprehension that I know more than pumper this is evidenced by her inability to answer any of my questions and her self admitted lack of knowledge.

I'm not seeing this at all

I don't see where Pumper has failed to answer questions. Where is her 'self-admitted lack of knowledge'?

What I do see is your pretty horrible posting style. It's clear you don't want any actual engagement. I'll leave it there!

@EarringsandLipstick I guess it depends if you count 'what?' As a real answer

@EarringsandLipstick

I’ve answered several shitty posts and I haven’t retaliated once.

I agree Pumper & applaud you! Night. 👋

And you @EarringsandLipstick - who could have guessed mumsnet was so anti child development if it meant losing a fight with a 2.5 year old? Night

Clearly pumper and earrings are the only people whove ever worked with kids, who have kids and who know anything...

Grow up Lyra 😡

Not once have I said anything approaching this.

I don't work with children (and made this clear). I am a parent. And I've repeatedly said it's just my opinion, which is as valid as anyone else's.

However you & Betty refuse to accept others can have different, legitimate opinions.

And it’s perfectly fine for them to rudely and patronisingly disagree

Please point out where I have done this even once

@EarringsandLipstick

How does one situation result in learning and the other does not?

It's been explained over & over.

The child did not choose to walk on cold wet ground with no shoes & learn through this experience (like cereal-carrying child)

The child was lifted out of the car onto cold ground, and is unlikely to have made the association between the 2 events.

In my opinion.

For every post about this, you've cherry-picked & twisted the posts. You don't want to understand (even if you disagree).

Umm. I wasn't comparing those two examples - it's actually you who are cherry picking

My question was how is the child that is assisted onto her potty by an adult able to learn but the child assisted barefoot into the floor not able to learn?

But pumper surely the child knew they were about to get out of the car. They were aware what was about to happen. Most 2.5 year olds I know understand that a car stops and you get out to go to the park or wherever. So getting lifted out of the car would have been expected.

The child refused let the childminder put her shoes on despite knowing she was about to be put on the ground.

My question was how is the child that is assisted onto her potty by an adult able to learn but the child assisted barefoot into the floor not able to learn?

I'm meant to be gone, having waved & all but ok. 😊

The 'assisting' has nothing to do with anything.

It's the process as a whole, in each case.

I do realise I'm wasting my breath typing as you will disagree with anything written here that doesn't accord with your own very odd beliefs. 🤦🏻‍♀️