To be cross with our childminder?

[ranging]

Name changed.

DD has been going to the same childminder since she was 8 months and she is now 2.5. She absolutely loves it there and she's very kind and friendly, I get lots of crafts home that DD does and they go out and do a lot.

DD is going through a challenging phase, not doing as she's told, very stubborn, sometimes hitting and biting.

When I picked her up on Friday, the childminder said that she had taken her shoes and socks off in the car and was refusing to put them back on, so she took her out the car and put him on the (wet and muddy) ground in her bare feet and told her basically that's what you get for not putting your shoes on. She apparently got upset by this and then finally allowed her to put her shoes back on.

I was a bit taken aback by this, AIBU to tell her I am not happy about this at all? I'm not sure if this is an ok tactic to use with a toddler but I never would and don't want anyone else to treat her like that either.

I think in the OP the child knew they were going to get out of the car (my son knows when the car stops they usually get lifted out-Although he is possibly a genius ). They would have been told to put their shoes on or they would get cold wet feet. I don’t see that as any different as being warned not to run or they could fall.

@WaltzingBetty

English isn’t my first language so I do sometimes miss some subtle points - but I don’t think I’m wrong here. You’ve accused me several times of being unable to answer, I’m not. I’ve asked you several times to ask me direct questions and you won’t. But I’m not insulting you in the process.

You're fundamentally misunderstanding what i'm saying

You have clearly answered 'what?' Or ''Ison's understand' to the questions I've asked.

That's a fairly clearly indication that you are unable to answer those questions. I've repeatedly said that's fine as you obviously don't understand them.

You're the one that keeps labouring the point and asking me to repost them. It's pointless. If you could have answered them then I assume you would have.
You obviously can't
I don't see that me reposting them would help

Well, let’s see. Post them and we’ll find out.

@EarringsandLipstick

When I picked her up on Friday, the childminder said that she had taken her shoes and socks off in the car and was refusing to put them back on

There we are opening post. Child was refusing to put them back on. So CM could have forced them back on against child's wishes, could have forced child into buggy against child's wishes, sat in the car until child decides to put them on therby ruining the day for the other children and showing shoe child they call the shots, or CM could say the floor is wet and cold you will get cold feet when you go to play if you don't put your shoes on. This was then demonstrated and child put shoes on by choice, so not a punishment a demonstration of what the choice means.

• @WaltzingBetty yes, you can’t force a child to potty train, that’s right. You can encourage them and make it fun, but until they have the development to hold it until they get to a toilet, you can punish them all you want and it’ll make absolutely no difference.*

But potty training isn't natural and you said that children only learn naturally. So which is it?

Also child development/science widely accepts that toddlers are capable of operant learning, so you can keep denying it but that won't make it true

@WaltzingBetty

* *@WaltzingBetty yes, you can’t force a child to potty train, that’s right. You can encourage them and make it fun, but until they have the development to hold it until they get to a toilet, you can punish them all you want and it’ll make absolutely no difference.

But potty training isn't natural and you said that children only learn naturally. So which is it?

Also child development/science widely accepts that toddlers are capable of operant learning, so you can keep denying it but that won't make it true

Why do you think potty training isn’t natural?

Well, let’s see. Post them and we’ll find out.

Umm I already have. And you couldn't answer

I honestly don't know how to make that any clearer

Your opinions defy all child development science.

But clearly you guys know better
You should publish

Funnily enough, I do have an academic role at a university! (Not in child development, as I'm sure you realise!)

I see people like you a lot. A vague idea of the 'theory' but no actual practical application or knowledge. And not even a great grasp of the theory.

I 'know better' compared to the silly stuff you've spouted, because I'm a parent & I've seen it.

I don't mind if you think differently of course & if you feel the CM was entirely right. That's fine. But that's all it is - your thoughts not some incontrovertible truth.

And if you did know anything about academic papers, you'd know how common it is for experiments not to work, for outcomes to differ, for outlying events to happen.

Nothing is an exact science. And definitely not child development!

Lack of Neanderthal potties?

[quote sweeneytoddsrazor]@EarringsandLipstick

When I picked her up on Friday, the childminder said that she had taken her shoes and socks off in the car and was refusing to put them back on

There we are opening post. Child was refusing to put them back on. So CM could have forced them back on against child's wishes, could have forced child into buggy against child's wishes, sat in the car until child decides to put them on therby ruining the day for the other children and showing shoe child they call the shots, or CM could say the floor is wet and cold you will get cold feet when you go to play if you don't put your shoes on. This was then demonstrated and child put shoes on by choice, so not a punishment a demonstration of what the choice means.[/quote]
What's your point? Sorry I'm not being snarky, I just am not sure was this in response to a post of mine?

@WaltzingBetty

Well, let’s see. Post them and we’ll find out.

Umm I already have. And you couldn't answer

I honestly don't know how to make that any clearer

Well, you haven’t posted them again, and I’ve got five minutes until my phone goes away. Are you posting them or not?

I 'know better' compared to the silly stuff you've spouted, because I'm a parent & I've seen it.

Being a parent makes you know better? How does that work then when you’re not the only parent on the thread?

@WaltzingBetty

Lack of Neanderthal potties?

😂🤦🏻‍♀️

I presume this was a joke but even still...!

Toilet training has existed since humans evolved! (In rather different forms, of course).

I 'know better' compared to the silly stuff you've spouted, because I'm a parent & I've seen it.

By that reasoning you're also an excellent gynaecologist, dentist and I'm sure have many other skills. I take my hat off to you

I prefer to take an evidence informed approach and apply critical evaluation of the evidence. Alongside my practical experience.

I'm assuming that as you've refused to engage in answering any questions or applying any critical reasoning you prefer not to

Your choice of course

Well, you haven’t posted them again, and I’ve got five minutes until my phone goes away. Are you posting them or not?

If you were remotely interested in answering them you could have easily looked by now.

Especially when it’s so easy now to see your own posts and @WaltzingBetty has pointed out that you replied to most of them.

@WaltzingBetty

Lack of Neanderthal potties?

Neanderthals would have had bladder control past a certain age though. Not from birth - if you’d punished a Neanderthal baby for not having bladder control it would change absolutely nothing. It still wouldn’t have bladder control.

Assuming you are in the UK, it is spring. Late spring at that.

It's not like it's -10 outside and there's a risk of frostbite. Youre being silly.

Your childminder taught your child why shoes are a good idea. If it were me I'd think about using that tactic with other things whilst she's going through this phase.

Toilet training has existed since humans evolved! (In rather different forms, of course).

On plastic potties and flush WCs

Sure it has

I’d still say it was out of order for a childminder to make that decision for the child, yes. So if the child was unsure about walking on the ground barefoot and the childminder forced them to do it - even knowing they would like it - I’d say that was unfair

Right, so children should never be exposed to new experiences in case they don't like them. Sure.
And manipulating and tricking children into doing what you want them to do is fine because you are not lifting them out of a car. Think I've got it now, thanks. Jesus wept.

@JustLyra

Well, you haven’t posted them again, and I’ve got five minutes until my phone goes away. Are you posting them or not?

If you were remotely interested in answering them you could have easily looked by now.

Especially when it’s so easy now to see your own posts and @WaltzingBetty has pointed out that you replied to most of them.

I can’t see the ones I missed, and I’ve asked @WaltzingBetty several times to repost, and I’ve taken loads of insults along the way. Do you want to do it?

I think its a shame there was no vote on this one. I think it would be 90% YABU and yet the thread is still going on, OP long gone.

Being a parent makes you know better?

You're quoting me out of context (unsurprisingly).

I put 'know better' in quotes because Betty was being snarky about how I should publish a paper as I & Pumper 'know better' (so I was quoting her).

I don't know better than other parents here, who can give their views, like me. But I do 'know' as much as anyone else, based on my experience as a parent.

Betty is under the misapprehension that she knows more than others & retorts sarcastically & bitchily to posters not in agreement.

I can’t see the ones I missed, and I’ve asked @WaltzingBetty several times to repost, and I’ve taken loads of insults along the way. Do you want to do it?

Do i look like your PA?

You’re also still not understanding that Waltzing said that you are unable to answer, not that you didn’t answer.

You didn’t miss them. You just couldn’t answer them.

Neanderthals would have had bladder control past a certain age though. Not from birth - if you’d punished a Neanderthal baby for not having bladder control it would change absolutely nothing. It still wouldn’t have bladder control.

No one has suggested that. I'm simply challenging your assertion that toddlers can only learn from consequences that occur naturally with no adult interference - like spilling a bowl of cereal.

You said they cannot learn from an adult lifting them into cold ground when they want to be barefoot

By that same reasoning they also cannot learn by an adult lifting them into a potty when they want to wee

@RubyFowler

I think its a shame there was no vote on this one. I think it would be 90% YABU and yet the thread is still going on, OP long gone.

That's ok tho? People are allowed to continue posting whether OP is around or not.

I do hope she sees there is some support for her.

Some earlier posts were really horrible

It stands for precious firstborn op.

I think the idea of natural consequences is interesting. Op have you said anything to the cm?

Is it tricky using a buggy lad punishment? I literally grabbed mine from my mums so I can take my Dd on long walks ect and get about more without using the car. I’m hoping my dd will tolerate it, as she’s 2.5 and can’t walk that far. Also want it again so I can visit shops ect.