That women shouldn’t be forced into silence over males competing in female sports

[Ikeasucks]

NEW Zealand has selected a 43 yr old transwoman to represent them in the Olympics in the women’s weightlifting competition. Female athletes feel they are being forced into silence on the issue. How did it come to this?

www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/females-told-be-quiet-transgender-issue-ex-weightlifter-2021-05-07/

Good point regarding different breeds! BUT my example was with regards to human equestrian athletes, in that it has never been a huge problem having mixed competitions.

BUT my point was that the horse in equestrian sports cancels out much if not all of the biological advantage of male bodied humans. Thus, a better analogy is a Shetland pony vs a Clydesdale. Because that is pretty much what it amounts to when a biological male competes against a biological female in a test of purely human strength or speed.

I mean, seriously. You see no problem in a mixed sex weightlifting contest, 100m sprint or boxing match?

@DrSbaitso

I don’t believe that trans people want to compete in the section they identify with just because it Might give them a physical advantage.

First of all, it does give them a physical advantage. There's no "might". It does. That's precisely why sports are sex segregated, or supposedly they are.

Secondly, we already have trans women competing in women's sports and no natal woman can get the gold. So why do you not believe it?

Third, even if no trans woman had done it yet (they have, several times), women athletes still need protection against it.

So to answer your question, honestly: I don’t believe that trans people compete in segregated sports just because of a possible physical disadvantage because there are other reasons. They don’t feel safe competing in their own caragory (and again, this brings me back to a PP point that it is not the job of women to validate someone’s feelings, which is a fair point and something for me to think about!) (And I know there have been countless situations where women do not feel safe in the company of someone who is born biologically male and still identifies as such, and with real and unfortunate reasons), and because of the hormones they are taking that suppress some of the hormones that might make them physically stronger (but again, I have to read up on this as I’m not sure how much taking female hormones can affect the effects of testosterone, for example.....I don’t know if that even makes sense but it did i my head 😬)

@DrSbaitso

Good point regarding different breeds! BUT my example was with regards to human equestrian athletes, in that it has never been a huge problem having mixed competitions.

BUT my point was that the horse in equestrian sports cancels out much if not all of the biological advantage of male bodied humans. Thus, a better analogy is a Shetland pony vs a Clydesdale. Because that is pretty much what it amounts to when a biological male competes against a biological female in a test of purely human strength or speed.

I mean, seriously. You see no problem in a mixed sex weightlifting contest, 100m sprint or boxing match?

But my point is that I don’t think that is the case. It does take a lot of physical ability to compete a horse to a high level.... I think my point has become some what irrelevant now anyway. I agree that mixed weight lifting, or mixed running events present their own issues around suitability for mixed competition!

@Bambam2019

Okay so. Everyone’s outraged at this. But I compete in show jumping and the classes are mixed 🤷🏻‍♀️ And nobody complains that it is unfair (and I’ve been told it’s not a real sport before, it absolutely is and challenge anyone who thinks so to have a go. Not at all just sitting and looking pretty). But then again I am a very liberal feminist and proud of being so.

But many amateur women showjumpers prefer to buy a horse from another female rider if they can, because its harder to emulate a male rider in terms of strength and force. Not all of course but it is a Thing.

Anyway, about weight lifting ...

It does take a lot of physical ability to compete a horse to a high level....

It takes a lot to run ultra-marathons, shoot a gun or drive a racing car but men don't have an advantage there either.

The point is that in most sports % muscle mass, haemaglobin levels, twitch muscle numbers, height, pelvis shape and lung capacity will give men an unassailable advantage. Where that is not the case then, of course, there should be mixed competition.

[quote Ikeasucks]NEW Zealand has selected a 43 yr old transwoman to represent them in the Olympics in the women’s weightlifting competition. Female athletes feel they are being forced into silence on the issue. How did it come to this?

www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/females-told-be-quiet-transgender-issue-ex-weightlifter-2021-05-07/[/quote]
I think this is FABULOUS!

It’s going to bring the issue to the attention of the massed public, many of whom are unaware that this is happening to women’s sport.

Let’s hope they win gold - there’ll be one hell of a public debate if they do

Hey all. I think you’ve all raised fantastic points and I am seeing this from a different point of view.
I have always been of the opinion that women, in all walks of life and areas of society have had to work 10x harder to achieve recognition, respect and equal rights. I still do not think we are there.
Having read other replies, some addresses to me and some not, I can understand that, more often than not, segregation in sports IS the fairer option.
Most people who have responded to me have done so in a way that has been educational. Not your job of course but thank you all the same :)
I stand by a point I have made, sometimes these threads become an excuse for transgender bashing which isn’t on, and I am a liberal feminist so I would like to think of a solution that keeps all athletes happy.
I’m sure I saw someone suggest an ‘open’ catagory which could be good!

@RebeccaOfSunnyHellFarm

Someone always brings up horse riding. Unless you wear the saddle it's not relevant.

I don’t agree 100% BUT I do feel that I missed the point, somewhat, in that this thread was more aimed at the weight lifting catagory. My bad. Apologies!

An open catagory would quickly become dominated by men, so would be fairly pointless.
It'd just devolve into men's b.

a solution that keeps all athletes happy
That's not going to happen in this situation, is it, Bambam because women athletes will have to concede to trans rights.

@Maireas

a solution that keeps all athletes happy That's not going to happen in this situation, is it, Bambam because women athletes will have to concede to trans rights.

Not really. Maybe I should’ve been clearer. Open sections as well as segregated sections!

An open catagory would quickly become dominated by men, so would be fairly pointless.

In fairness women's is now becoming an open category in many sports by default. Let's have women's sport and open sport and let the men dominate the latter whether they wear lippy or not.

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

It's absolutely disgusting. More top level male athletes need to start speaking out about this too, I'm sure they'll be able to do so without the bile that's been spewed at the women who have had the courage to say that males competing in women's sport is wrong. It's madness that stating something so obvious takes courage!

Out of interest does anyone know if any current top level male athletes have commented on it?

Its constantly debated on the US LetsRun site, which contains a number of top athletes and coaches. Many athletes however won't comment, as their professional contracts don't permit them to.

There has actually been an incredibly serious case in the UK involving a trans woman runner - Michael Jamieson/Lauren Jeska, who is currently in jail for the attempted murder of a UK Athletics official who was trying to chase up his failure to submit blood tests to show that he was continuing to take testosterone suppressing medication:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-39266777

Lauren didn't just win the British Womens Fell Running Championship from 2010-2012, she competed in the elite womens' category in races such as the Great North Run, finished 2nd in the Welsh Womens' Cross Country Championships and won valuable national road races, such as the Salford 10k. It was believed she stopped taking the compulsory testosterone suppressing medication when her results began to decline, which saw a late career boost in her form until she was jailed.

New Zealand is embarrassing itself...

@AngeloMysterioso - interesting

Oh I see. Yes, that would enable women's sports to be protected.

Oh, and I think its fair to assume that Seb Coe, President of the IAAF, is in favour of keeping the Womens' category free from trans women, since he was responsible for introducing the ban on runners in certain athletics events whose testosterone levels were higher than a newly set limit. Paula Radcliffe has been outspoken about the issue in the past, although the BBC generally won't let her speak out about it when she commentates for them. I hear Steve Cram is also against trans women running in womens' events.

Bambam do you think there should be separate male and female races in equestrian sport?

Because a large majority of the winners are male and that's why the female winners get such attention.

So it's possible that despite the fact the horse does cancel out lots of difference (and we know the horses fitness and training have an impact) there is actually an effect of biological difference?

Or do you think the fact woman have beaten men shows there isn't any bearing on the jockeys sex?

That Sarah Silverman clip was excruciating to watch. The faces ! So patronising and cringe.
This is all so demonstrably unfair on women and girls. Imagine losing your place on the podium to a past it male in late middle age, who has no shame at all in taking the price from a young woman.
I am heavier than DH since having children. He used to be half a stone heavier than me. We are the same height and both small framed. He is much, much stronger than me. He could easily overpower me. In fact at eight years old my friend’s son could pin me down. He was wiry and strong , but a child . It was sobering how easily he could wrestle me to the ground.

Bambam2019 you said:
I don’t believe that trans people compete in segregated sports just because of a possible physical disadvantage because there are other reasons. They don’t feel safe competing in their own caragory

Why would a trans person feel unsafe in their own catagory? If it's because they fear male violence or intimidation, then surely you can make the same argument as to why women don't want ANY males, regardless of how they identify competing against them, or in the changing rooms with them.

You also say that you don't believe they would want to compete in women's categories for the advantage? Sure that is naive in the extreme.
All sportspeople at high levels are there because they are competitive. They need to be to get anywhere.
We know that athletes sometimes take banned substances to give them an advantage, especially in international competitions when the stakes are so high - how can you possibly say that one group of people (transwomen) would never attempt to gain an advantage? The rules are there to try and mitigate these things, why should the rules be disregarded for one group of people?

You also stated that they should not have to give any medical information in order to compete...but surely all competitors are required to give some medical information - if they want to compete in a certain weight category, their weight is monitored. Many athletes also have to give urine samples regularly and are tested for banned substances.
All of this is somewhat intrusive, but is accepted as part of participating in competitive events like the Olympics.

So I ask you again, why should this one group be given special treatment?

@itsgettingwierd

Bambam do you think there should be separate male and female races in equestrian sport?

Because a large majority of the winners are male and that's why the female winners get such attention.

So it's possible that despite the fact the horse does cancel out lots of difference (and we know the horses fitness and training have an impact) there is actually an effect of biological difference?

Or do you think the fact woman have beaten men shows there isn't any bearing on the jockeys sex?

Hi! No I like the fact that it is mixed, to be honest, so my personal opinion would be to keep it this way. I think you raise a good point about celebrating the wins of women. For me personally, I always celebrate more because I am always rooting for women to succeed, so love to see a female winner, but then that applies in all walks of life!

As there is a paraolymics there should also be a transolymics to satisfy the LGBTQ community.

@itsgettingwierd

Bambam do you think there should be separate male and female races in equestrian sport?

Because a large majority of the winners are male and that's why the female winners get such attention.

So it's possible that despite the fact the horse does cancel out lots of difference (and we know the horses fitness and training have an impact) there is actually an effect of biological difference?

Or do you think the fact woman have beaten men shows there isn't any bearing on the jockeys sex?

If I could butt in, there are separate male and female allowances in horse racing! Fillies and mares carry less weight in conditions and stakes races than geldings, colts and stallions.

The few separate male and female only showjumping competitions have been unisex for a few years now.

@Mulletsaremisunderstood

Bambam2019 you said: I don’t believe that trans people compete in segregated sports just because of a possible physical disadvantage because there are other reasons. They don’t feel safe competing in their own caragory

Why would a trans person feel unsafe in their own catagory? If it's because they fear male violence or intimidation, then surely you can make the same argument as to why women don't want ANY males, regardless of how they identify competing against them, or in the changing rooms with them.

You also say that you don't believe they would want to compete in women's categories for the advantage? Sure that is naive in the extreme.
All sportspeople at high levels are there because they are competitive. They need to be to get anywhere.
We know that athletes sometimes take banned substances to give them an advantage, especially in international competitions when the stakes are so high - how can you possibly say that one group of people (transwomen) would never attempt to gain an advantage? The rules are there to try and mitigate these things, why should the rules be disregarded for one group of people?

You also stated that they should not have to give any medical information in order to compete...but surely all competitors are required to give some medical information - if they want to compete in a certain weight category, their weight is monitored. Many athletes also have to give urine samples regularly and are tested for banned substances.
All of this is somewhat intrusive, but is accepted as part of participating in competitive events like the Olympics.

So I ask you again, why should this one group be given special treatment?

Hi! First of all I haven’t said they shouldn’t have to provide medical information?? Perhaps that was a different poster?

Yes because of male vilence. I respect your opinion on this, as everyone has different circumstances and experiences. Because if this I find this a difficult point to discuss. I do not want to invalidate your experiences by giving my own opinions, so on that point, I won’t. (Who am I to say someone shouldn’t fear other people based on their own experiences afterall! ) but that was an answer to someone’s question about why trans athletes may not want to compete in a specific catagory.

I do not believe trans people deserve ‘special treatment’. My original point was that in some sports competitions compete in mixed competitions. I have since addressed that I AGREE that other sports may not be suitable to accommodate this. So I DO NOT agree trans people should have special treatment. But I do thing some sports can be run as mixed and therefore wether or not an athlete was trans would not be relevant.
I was making that point because sometimes threads like this can become a place for general transgender bashing. I have since tried to take on board the opinions of others regarding this specific topic.

Sorry the male violence paragraph wasn’t very clear 😬 I mean that I do not really want to discuss your point about athletes fearing other athletes. I cannot claim to know the experiences of others and what may have lead them to that opinion. So, even though I myself would not have a problem having a trans person in my catagory, I can understand, to an extent, why some might, relating to their own past lives experiences.