That women shouldn’t be forced into silence over males competing in female sports

[Ikeasucks]

NEW Zealand has selected a 43 yr old transwoman to represent them in the Olympics in the women’s weightlifting competition. Female athletes feel they are being forced into silence on the issue. How did it come to this?

www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/females-told-be-quiet-transgender-issue-ex-weightlifter-2021-05-07/

@donquixotedelamancha

It does take a lot of physical ability to compete a horse to a high level....

It takes a lot to run ultra-marathons, shoot a gun or drive a racing car but men don't have an advantage there either.

The point is that in most sports % muscle mass, haemaglobin levels, twitch muscle numbers, height, pelvis shape and lung capacity will give men an unassailable advantage. Where that is not the case then, of course, there should be mixed competition.

Okay. This is a good point. Thank you. And yes all of those contributing factors would make it unfair for mixed sections in some sports, I agree 😊

Oh god. This is insane. Women may as well give up competing in sports if this carries on.

Of course equestrian sport needs strength. That may be why in Olympic showjumping, 1751 men have competed and 378 women.

If I could butt in, there are separate male and female allowances in horse racing! Fillies and mares carry less weight in conditions and stakes races than geldings, colts and stallions.

That's an excellent point. Perhaps TW could carry penalties to even up the odds.

But I do thing some sports can be run as mixed and therefore wether or not an athlete was trans would not be relevant.

Sure. If a sport is mixed sex anyway there's no issue, it's open to all. But apart from equestrian sports, there simply aren't many which work fairly as mixed sex at elite levels. Someone mentioned shooting and motor racing... essentially it seems confined to sports which don't rely primarily on human strength or speed.

I am pro the idea of an open category for all and a protected female category. Which is a compromise, because women's sport will still be devalued by it.

@thenightsky

If I could butt in, there are separate male and female allowances in horse racing! Fillies and mares carry less weight in conditions and stakes races than geldings, colts and stallions.

That's an excellent point. Perhaps TW could carry penalties to even up the odds.

I couldn’t find the original post but yes that is true 🤷🏻‍♀️ You make a good point. Night sky, please can I ask what TW means for future reference?

@PermanentTemporary

I am pro the idea of an open category for all and a protected female category. Which is a compromise, because women's sport will still be devalued by it.

How so do you think that women’s sport will be devalued?

That question wasn’t meant in an agressive, explain yourself now!! kind of way, sorry if it came across as that 😬

I’ve not personally seen anyone who is trans and hates women, so I can’t comment on that

@Bambam2019 have you read the tweets from Fallon Fox after she fractured an opponents skull which pps have posted on this thread? I`ve posted it again here, along with another of her tweets.

The point with equestrian sports is that women and men can complete against each other fairly. Women are able to beat men.

There are no other Olympic sports where any women would even qualify if they had to compete against men.
Teenage boys can beat the women's world records.
The US women's football world cup winners were beaten by a school football team.

When men compete against women they are cheating because they have a huge physical advantage that women cannot ever overcome.

Hubbard competing against women is grotesque.

@ErrolTheDragon

But I do thing some sports can be run as mixed and therefore wether or not an athlete was trans would not be relevant.

Sure. If a sport is mixed sex anyway there's no issue, it's open to all. But apart from equestrian sports, there simply aren't many which work fairly as mixed sex at elite levels. Someone mentioned shooting and motor racing... essentially it seems confined to sports which don't rely primarily on human strength or speed.

Maybe an option for mixed in all sports, but of course with segregated sections, too? (But then how can we make it so that people DO NOT have to explain their reasons, regardless of which catagory they opt for, because I could see that happening unfortunately!)

@PoleToPole

I’ve not personally seen anyone who is trans and hates women, so I can’t comment on that

@Bambam2019 have you read the tweets from Fallon Fox after she fractured an opponents skull which pps have posted on this thread? I`ve posted it again here, along with another of her tweets.

I am not on twitter and so haven’t seen those tweets. How disgusting!!

Maybe an option for mixed in all sports,

How do you think that would actually go in practice, apart from some social non-contact sports?
It would be unsafe for many contact sports. And for others, if it was competitive, it would simply end up as essentially an extra men's option.

I’m a bit torn. I’m obviously completely livid and disgusted that women’s sport is just being thrown away like this and women are bullied into silence BUT if this person wins a gold medal, it will really bring it to the forefront and crystallise the disparity and complete unfairness. The sooner more people realise the consequences of this TWAW rubbish, the better.

A while ago Hubbard lifted some weight which was sufficient to qualify for the Olympics and it was posted by the NZ Olympic Twitter with the hashtag Earnthefern

And taken down shortly afterwards due to the comments.

I feel desperately sorry for the women forced out by Hubbard muscling themselves into this spot. However, a picture speaks a thousand words and if Hubbard wins a medal the world seeing Hubbard with their mid 40s male-distribution fat bulk, male pattern-balding and male entitlement will be helpful towards shutting this travesty down

What a joke.

I'd love to see the weight-lifters boycott the whole event, men too.

@ErrolTheDragon

Maybe an option for mixed in all sports,

How do you think that would actually go in practice, apart from some social non-contact sports?
It would be unsafe for many contact sports. And for others, if it was competitive, it would simply end up as essentially an extra men's option.

You make some good points but then my answer would be, to not compete in the mixed catagory if you do not feel safe to do so..? (And that, ideally, shouldn’t come with any ‘bashing’ for not choosing the mixed catagory. As the internet is now so easily accessible, and therefore easier for people to judge, people will get bashed for it, which is why, again, as I have said before, we need to continue having conversations around this topic! Because the more sensible and respectful conversations we have, the less ‘fun’ it becomes for people to be rude and aggressive toward those who don’t share the same opinion.)

I don’t believe that trans people compete in segregated sports just because of a possible physical disadvantage because there are other reasons. They don’t feel safe competing in their own caragory

And why should women be made actually unsafe in theirs to accommodate the male bodied people? Did you see the tweet by the male person who cracked a woman's skull in a boxing match?

my point is that I don’t think that is the case. It does take a lot of physical ability to compete a horse to a high level...

I'm sure it does, but it's still a horse doing the actual jumping and running, not a human! So would you think it was fair to ride a Shetland when someone else has a thoroughbred? The thoroughbred identifies as a Shetland and doesn't feel safe with other thoroughbreds!

This is madness!

I do see that a PP has made the point about differences actually being accounted for between horse sexes anyway, and that you've conceded human sports need to be sex segregated, so I appreciate that. I just really need to make this clear for anyone else who's reading.

Sex exists! You can make cosmetic changes to your body but you cannot fundamentally change the biology. There are times when this matters, and fair competitions of strength and speed are one of them!

@DrSbaitso

I don’t believe that trans people compete in segregated sports just because of a possible physical disadvantage because there are other reasons. They don’t feel safe competing in their own caragory

And why should women be made actually unsafe in theirs to accommodate the male bodied people? Did you see the tweet by the male person who cracked a woman's skull in a boxing match?

my point is that I don’t think that is the case. It does take a lot of physical ability to compete a horse to a high level...

I'm sure it does, but it's still a horse doing the actual jumping and running, not a human! So would you think it was fair to ride a Shetland when someone else has a thoroughbred? The thoroughbred identifies as a Shetland and doesn't feel safe with other thoroughbreds!

This is madness!

I do see that a PP has made the point about differences actually being accounted for between horse sexes anyway, and that you've conceded human sports need to be sex segregated, so I appreciate that. I just really need to make this clear for anyone else who's reading.

Sex exists! You can make cosmetic changes to your body but you cannot fundamentally change the biology. There are times when this matters, and fair competitions of strength and speed are one of them!

Ahh, but you’ve only quoted SOME of my original post there. Really I said that some trans people may feel unsafe in a particular catagory, but did also mention I do not believe it is the women who should compromise in order to validate some else. I also mentioned I know there are reasons why someone may feel unsafe with someone who is biologically male in their catagory, and so didn’t want to elaborate on that in order to respect their own past lived experiences! I do not want this comment to look like I do not respect that women have struggled because I know we do. And continue to do so!

@Oysterbabe

I don't think she's too sad about it.

What a scumbag.

It's like year 6 kids stealing a 5 year old's dinner money just because it makes them feel big and tough.

@OwlBeThere

For people who feel silenced I hear about how everyone on mumsnet feels about trans women every 5 mins.

Couldn't agree more. So much hate. I'm not particularly pro or anti trans by the way, but I've had to hide the Feminism topic on here because of the many threads. No escape from it even here.

While sport may be a human right, that doesn’t, of shouldn’t, mean anyone has the right to identify into the elite category of female sport.

It’s not “inclusive”, it’s the opposite as girls and women are being pushed aside from their own sex class. For those women who say they think it’s more important that TW feel included, that’s great, but you don’t actually get to throw my daughters - who play and care about sport - under the bus.

Bambam, I see you are doing your best to be fair to both sides, but I for one think that being excluded on account of their sex, will never be acceptable to a lot of male people who identify as transwomen. They have always been female, you see, missexed at birth or a penis is also a female organ. It doesn't matter how they look or if they have even taking any hormones, let alone surgery. They don't have gender dypshoria, they are just being their true selves. So of course transgirls should compete with girls and transwomen with women, they are not a subset of women or girls. Sex is a spectrum and insignificant anyway.

And yes, these arguments are very valid. According to Stonewall.

@nolongersurprised

A while ago Hubbard lifted some weight which was sufficient to qualify for the Olympics and it was posted by the NZ Olympic Twitter with the hashtag Earnthefern

And taken down shortly afterwards due to the comments.

I feel desperately sorry for the women forced out by Hubbard muscling themselves into this spot. However, a picture speaks a thousand words and if Hubbard wins a medal the world seeing Hubbard with their mid 40s male-distribution fat bulk, male pattern-balding and male entitlement will be helpful towards shutting this travesty down

You would think, but not if they succeed in changing the actual definition of "woman" from "adult human of the reproductive sex class capable of producing ova" to "inner feeling".

I'm so angry and upset with how this has gone because I never used to feel this way about the trans rights issue. I saw no problem in people living authentically to themselves, would use whatever pronouns they wanted, didn't even care about toilets. Still don't.

But it's become madness. It's gone insane. It's become a steady erosion of women's rights and protections, a denial of absolute objective incontrovertible facts, and all wrapped up in a type of discourse that is absolutely identical to the violent-minded, sexualised, misogynistic hate speech that men have always used to intimidate women into silence, only now they add the prefix "lady" to their dicks when telling you to choke on them. I am of course aware it's not all trans people (does anyone really think these people are actually trans?), but it's the loudest cohort that claims to speak for them, while telling us they can shout us down because they ARE us. And that there's no significant difference between a male and female body even in a fucking weightlifting competition!

It is madness! It is insanity! And nobody actually believes it, which is the fucking killer. Everyone knows it isn't true! So why is everyone so scared to say it???