That women shouldn’t be forced into silence over males competing in female sports

[Ikeasucks]

NEW Zealand has selected a 43 yr old transwoman to represent them in the Olympics in the women’s weightlifting competition. Female athletes feel they are being forced into silence on the issue. How did it come to this?

www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/females-told-be-quiet-transgender-issue-ex-weightlifter-2021-05-07/

[quote RebeccaOfSunnyHellFarm]@CirclesWithinCircles Mumsnet actually can release information to the police if a crime or safeguarding issue requires it. I'd encourage you to contact them regarding that threat of physical violence and take it further.[/quote]
The poster was very sneaky. They sent me a conciliatory pm on here after clashing somewhat on the post. I responded politely and they then sent me a further 8 pms, 1 after the other, making comments about my place of birth ("sheep shaggers"). I retorted that they should get their mummy to sort it out and they then sent me a message saying never mind that, tell me your address and I'll come round myself to sort it out. I forwarded all 9 to mumsnet. They were mostly very personal, abusive and aggressive and tbh just reminded me of how a weird man would react if you rejected him or stood up to him.

Due to previous posts on the thread, they are aware of which city I live in and it seems to be almost certainly the same one as me.

They then complained to mumsnet and had some of my posts containing screenshots of the pms they had sent me of deleted

I don't think mumsnet really wanted to get involved. The poster doesnt seem to be banned and didn't identify themselves as trans but seemed to unduly target me when I pointed out that the appointment of the trans woman CEO was in breach of all sorts of legal guidance. It remains baffling how, out of the tiny number of trans women in Scotland, one of them has been appointed CEO of Rape Crisis Edinburgh. The poster did not like me pointing that out. Its all very, very strange and suspicious.

It was such a similar resort to a threat of violence that I got from the previous transwoman who targeted me that made me suspicious.

This is very much what some people do. They become expert at presenting themselves as victims and they will try and trap you into saying something that will get you into trouble (I didn't fall for that). This then isolates you from the people who would normally support you, because they don't want to risk getting involved.

I digress, but it's relevant to this thread to point out how some of these self entitled, self obsessed people operate in promoting themselves and their selfiah self interest. If they can, they will run up massive legal bills for organisations who stand up to them. Most sporting governing bodies simply don't have the financial legal resources to tackle this sort of stuff.

Even Stephanie Hayden does not think this is fair.

@CirclesWithinCircles, I know we haven't always agreed on everything, but I really admire you, not only for having to put up with that shit but for talking about it openly; that can't be easy and takes a lot of bravery. I'm appalled that MNHQ didn't ban a poster who did that. People have received suspensions and bans on here for much less.

Personally I would let Mumsnet know you are forwarding them to the police.
Even if they remain anonymous, it would still be a good idea to flag up a potential stalking/harrasment case so you can't later be accused of encouragement etc.
I don't care how trivial the police might consider it either. If more women reported said behaviour and the police dealt with it in a timely manner there would be less escalated crime for them to apologise for.

Surely the 'anti-trans' shutdown arguments can't hold a lot of water in this case regardless, as this massively disadvantages trans men too if they have to compete against natal men?

Surely if you have the skill to compete at high level you should be able to do so regardless of how you identify. And where sports are split by defining classes based on physical attributes, be it weight, age or sex, to allow for fair competition, then you compete in the class that relates to your physical attributes.

This then of course goes back to a previous poster's point regarding choices, as there would inevitability have to be a decision as to lifes priorities as to compete would rule out the option of hormonal type treatments during their sporting career.

Surely the 'anti-trans' shutdown arguments can't hold a lot of water in this case

Which is why they turn to "oh I just want to call for Respectful Discussion", "You don't care about trans people's feelings" and "Suck my lady dick, terf".

You can't win the argument based on facts, because those are blindingly obvious and everyone knows them. So all you can do is deflect, defuse and intimidate.

And it seems to work!

It's simple really.

If doping isn't allowed, it should be the same for everybody. Including transpeople.

If sex is segregated, it should be for everybody. Including transpeople.

No idea, ands, buts or coconuts.

That should be 'ifs' not idea!

[quote DrSbaitso]@CirclesWithinCircles, I know we haven't always agreed on everything, but I really admire you, not only for having to put up with that shit but for talking about it openly; that can't be easy and takes a lot of bravery. I'm appalled that MNHQ didn't ban a poster who did that. People have received suspensions and bans on here for much less.[/quote]
Thank you for your support. You have to be careful to admitting to stuff on the internet, as some people can't be bothered with it and will automatically just assume you are at fault as well, and then can attack you and make it worse.

I'm probably not going to report it to the police, as I suspect that they will tell me that it isn't a specific enough threat. I don't want to waste police time. Without going into too much detail, anything I do report to the police tends to be taken very seriously but I don't really see what they can do. And it is sometimes better to pick your battles.

Certainly, someone who says that sort of thing in a pm has threatened people before - you don't suddenly threaten to come round to someone's house because of a fairly mild post on an internet forum. They post in a very specific way and have a tendency to make very specific claims, so its entirely possible that they will identify themselves in the future in some way (not on here and not involving me...)

Transgender people claim they’ve been born into the wrong body.

They, themselves admit they have the ‘wrong body’.

If it’s the ‘wrong body’ in terms of the gender they align with, then it’s also the wrong body for competing in sport.

You can’t have one without the other.

Slight tangent, but I believe sport and being active is so important in teaching girls and young women to love their bodies.
It teaches them to appreciate what their body can do, rather than what it looks like.
Of course, many traditional female sports have an element of aesthetic, which is why it's great to see women branching out into male dominated sports.
It's also why it'll be such a tragedy if this destroys that opportunity for women to test their bodies and be the best they can and succeed.

@SaturdayRocks

Transgender people claim they’ve been born into the wrong body.

They, themselves admit they have the ‘wrong body’.

If it’s the ‘wrong body’ in terms of the gender they align with, then it’s also the wrong body for competing in sport.

You can’t have one without the other.

I'm sure that a while ago, Mermaids came out saying they'd never said "wrong body", and all the TRAs on reddit said it had only been a metaphor, silly, they'd never meant anyone to really think it...

I'm sure that a while ago, Mermaids came out saying they'd never said "wrong body", and all the TRAs on reddit said it had only been a metaphor, silly, they'd never meant anyone to really think it...

Ah right, the Trump school of back-tracking.

Surely if you have the skill to compete at high level you should be able to do so regardless of how you identify. And where sports are split by defining classes based on physical attributes, be it weight, age or sex, to allow for fair competition, then you compete in the class that relates to your physical attributes.
There isn't a category based on physical attributes in many sports and even if you have the skills to compete at high level you shouldn't be able to do so regardless of how you identify. Fallon Fox springs to mind and evidenced from MtF competitors they've won mainly based on physical ability.

Wouldn’t this be linked to drugs bans? Athletes can’t take performance enhancing drugs can they???

@Marypoppins19

Wouldn’t this be linked to drugs bans? Athletes can’t take performance enhancing drugs can they???

Arguably, trans women take performance reducing drugs, as they lower their testosterone level.

However, the testosterone level allowed by the IOC (10 nmol/L) is higher than the natural testosterone level of natal females (generally between 0.3-2.4 nmol/L). Studies have (unsurprisingly) found that transwomen retain an athletic advantage over natal females:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1252764

The walking back on 'wrong body' really came when the Dept of Education published new guidance that nobody should suggest to children that they could be in the wrong body. There were voices before that speaking against that narrative because it tends to argue that all trans people will be looking for medicalisation. But Mermaids were always big on it as a simple 'child-friendly' (actually more parent and donor friendly) explanation of why children might be expressing distress.

It should not just be women who should be able to object to unfair competition in women's sport. Men should also support fair competition in women's sport, many are involved in coaching, admin, marketing etc.

Surely the 'anti-trans' shutdown arguments can't hold a lot of water in this case regardless, as this massively disadvantages trans men too if they have to compete against natal men?

How much of that is actually going on though? I don’t hear of these cases.

Surely if you have the skill to compete at high level you should be able to do so regardless of how you identify.

And if that means natal women are essentially pushed out of the upper echelons of certain sports (because size and natural strength do matter, particularly in some sports) then that’s just tough luck? We should just all suck it up?

Is that your position?

Surely if you have the skill to compete at high level you should be able to do so regardless of how you identify. And where sports are split by defining classes based on physical attributes, be it weight, age or sex, to allow for fair competition, then you compete in the class that relates to your physical attributes.

Yes. Most sports have classes based on one simple physical attribute, sex. Some, within that have subclasses for weight or age; for juniors sex and age is the norm. Under 15 means under 15. Over 50s means over 50.

How you identify is immaterial. A male who 'identifies as a woman' should be free to identify as such while participating in the correct sex, weight etc category.

Surely the 'anti-trans' shutdown arguments can't hold a lot of water in this case regardless, as this massively disadvantages trans men too if they have to compete against natal men

All this means is natal women get fucked over twice. Disadvantaged if they transition. Disadvantaged if they don’t and want to compete at a high level within their own sex. Do people not see the issue with that?

I doubt that trans men could actually compete in either category. They wouldn't be able to compete well in the male category and, if on hormones, they wouldn't be able to compete with women - surely it counts as doping?

Indeed @Ionel. There are transmen in sport and they tend to be pushed front and centre to distract from the obvious issues the other way, but it is remarkable how few of them actually compete in male competitions, and their resultsare reported incredibly deceptively. You have to dig and dig and reread to work it out though.

Why wouldn’t natal men have an advantage over women in gymnastics and netball?

Gymnastics has different disciplines for male and female with the male sport heavily focused on strength/power rather than balance/flexibility. A female born competitor would be heavily disadvantaged if they switched to the male sport. Like pretty much everything else.

@newnortherner111

It should not just be women who should be able to object to unfair competition in women's sport. Men should also support fair competition in women's sport, many are involved in coaching, admin, marketing etc.

Many do. Its also worth recognising that in terms of audience, sponsorship, etc which drive many professional sports, many men and women simply enjoy seeing fit female bodies. Very few people want to see an under achieving 40 year old former male athlete in a new category.

Can you imagine what a turn off the women's Olympic 800m might be in 10 years time if this was allowed to progress? We could have a field comprised of over 50 forner male athletes, no longer in the prime of life, extending their Olympic dream, or even achieving it at last, lumbering round the track, setting new world records. Former male athletes could potentially have decades of professional careers, while women are pushed out entirely, or scrape the occasional medal.

It's farcical. Almost no one wants laurel Hubbard in that team. She is making an absolute fool of herself. But I suspect that Laurel has no ability to distingush notoriety and derision with fame. Laurel just likes an audience paying attention to her.