That women shouldn’t be forced into silence over males competing in female sports

[Ikeasucks]

NEW Zealand has selected a 43 yr old transwoman to represent them in the Olympics in the women’s weightlifting competition. Female athletes feel they are being forced into silence on the issue. How did it come to this?

www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/females-told-be-quiet-transgender-issue-ex-weightlifter-2021-05-07/

I don’t care if Hubbard wins or loses, the fact remains that they have deprived a biological female of their rightful place on the women’s team.
It’s just cheating.

It just shows how arse about face, how dishonestly conflated, the discourse has begun that it should even occur to anyone that the need for sex segregation in sports equals a disregard for the safety of trans people.

Doubly ironic when not sex segregating compromises the actual safety of women athletes!

How are people not seeing this???

The hand wringers who want to make everyone happy always remind me of that bit in mean girls when a girl talks about making a cake of smiles and rainbows.
Then someone cries out, "She doesn't even go here".
They very, very rarely have actual skin in the game as sports participants themselves or their daughters.

Then there's Regina George claiming she's the most victimised ever.

Who would have thought that film had any depth.

It won't be long till somebody claims that not being allowed to win is 'unsafe'. I think we're close.

[quote DrSbaitso]@Bambam2019, since you claim to have accepted that it is indeed necessary to segregate sport by sex, as natural male advantage is obvious ( en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sexes_(tennis) ) and unchanged by how one feels on the inside.... do you think you could give it a rest, now?

You're absolutely right that anti trans violence exists and is completely unacceptable, but it simply isn't relevant to this discussion. It is, frankly, not women athletes who are killing trans people or issuing threats to anyone. The only people who are unsafe in mixed sex sports are natal women, like the one who just had her skull cracked by a trans woman boxer who then boasted on Twitter about it (screenshot posted earlier).

When you keep bringing this up and attempting to justify yourself in this particular debate, as well as choosing Mumsnet of all places to call for respectful discussion, it really does give the impression that you are trying to deflect, derail and weaken the importance of what is being said on here, since you can no longer argue against its truth. That may not be your intention, but it's certainly how it's coming across to me.[/quote]
Nope not at all my intention.... and when people ask me questions about my opinion/posts, why wouldn’t I reply to them? I am not doing it in an agressive manner and actually am trying to be respectful to the fact that people have a different opinion to myself so I don’t think I need to give it a rest at all. However I am happy to end the discussion :)

To be fair, Bambam, I think you have been listening and you haven't been at all aggressive.

But it is frustrating to see someone with splinters in their arse from sitting on the fence.

This isn't a issue you can be half-way about. It isn't possible to have a coherent view that says 'women need separate sports' and also 'trans women need to compete with women'. It is not possible for both to be true.

So people are likely to get frustrated. People are angry about this stuff.

Nope not at all my intention

It's coming across that way. Constantly conflating what we are saying with anti trans violence and reminding a group of women to Be Nice has the effect of derailing, deflecting and defusing the actual issue and the importance of what we are saying.

So please don't.

My partner who is an intelligent person said to me this morning that he is fed up with me going on about these issues. He said he had read that if transwomen take HRT then surely their testosterone will be low and there will be no advantage. I just looked at him and said have you not read anything I’ve sent you. Also he is the same height and weight as me. I said put your hand against my hand - look see how much bigger your hand is and do you really think taking HRT makes your hands smaller. Why don’t people get it?

He then said well what are you doing about it? He is lucky to still be alive! A man who doesn’t see women’s sport as his problem basically.

Yadefnbu

Is there any literature out there about TW wanting to compete in female sports such as gymnastics or netball etc where their actual male sex organs will not benefit them.

We see it generally in football and rugby, athletics and boxing/ weightlifting.

Natal men will have an advantage over natal women in gymnastics and netball.

Yes, netball players need strength and speed.
Women may edge out slightly on front on balance and agility but not enough to offset it.

I know there's a transgender volleyball player who amazingly has also made the Olympic team....

Why wouldn’t natal men have an advantage over women in gymnastics and netball?

@EdwinPootsLovesArchaeology

Natal men will have an advantage over natal women in gymnastics and netball.

In gumnastics they won't. The inherent biological differences in male a and females are why they have completely different apparatus to compete on. So it would interesting to know if there's any TW who want to compete as woman or even any who compete as men

Here’s 51 year old Gabrielle Ludwig competing in women’s college basketball with 18-20 year old team mates. If you’re very observant you might be able to spot which one is Gabrielle.

Here is Fair Play For Women talking about how unfair this is fairplayforwomen.com/ana_paula_henkel/

Would men not have an advantage in lifting themselves on the bars and rings? A lot of upper body strength needed there.

Be Nice has the effect of derailing, deflecting and defusing the actual issue and the importance of what we are saying.

Yes this, and furthermore, it is damaging for the trans community.

Absolutely disgraceful, it's obvious to anyone with half a brain how unfair this is.

This goes beyond just being accepted for who feel you are inside, it is just malicious and extremely misogynistic.

Would men not have an advantage in lifting themselves on the bars and rings? A lot of upper body strength needed there.

Women don't compete on rings. But there is a video somewhere of male gymnastics picking up female routines and totally acing it.

@itsgettingwierd

Is there any literature out there about TW wanting to compete in female sports such as gymnastics or netball etc where their actual male sex organs will not benefit them.

We see it generally in football and rugby, athletics and boxing/ weightlifting.

I played social mixed netball for a couple of years. The teams were only allowed two men of seven players because they're faster, stronger, etc. Netball is only seen as a women's sport because it was supposedly more genteel than basketball. If you see the way the top teams play these days you'll know that's no longer the case!

@Feelinghothothottoday

My partner who is an intelligent person said to me this morning that he is fed up with me going on about these issues. He said he had read that if transwomen take HRT then surely their testosterone will be low and there will be no advantage. I just looked at him and said have you not read anything I’ve sent you. Also he is the same height and weight as me. I said put your hand against my hand - look see how much bigger your hand is and do you really think taking HRT makes your hands smaller. Why don’t people get it?

He then said well what are you doing about it? He is lucky to still be alive! A man who doesn’t see women’s sport as his problem basically.

A lot of men take their natural physical advantages over women so much for granted that they don't realise how huge it is.

My husband and I like to play fight, and I once made this point to him by saying I was now going to fight for absolute real, as if he were a real attacker. Ok, I didn't go for eyes or balls, but I fought for real. We both knew he would win but we were both surprised at just how easy it was for him; he had me properly overpowered in seconds. And I'm not a tiny slip of a thing, I'm 5'7" and a size 12-14. It helped him to realise how real the threat is and why sex matters in competitive sports.

@MoiraQueen

Would men not have an advantage in lifting themselves on the bars and rings? A lot of upper body strength needed there.

Women don't compete on rings. But there is a video somewhere of male gymnastics picking up female routines and totally acing it.

Thank you, I didn't know that. The very fact that women don't do rings suggests that yes, there's male advantage in gymnastics.

This isn't the video I was thinking if, but similar. Female Olympic gymnasts react to men performing women's routines.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvz3F4HP170