That women shouldn’t be forced into silence over males competing in female sports

[Ikeasucks]

NEW Zealand has selected a 43 yr old transwoman to represent them in the Olympics in the women’s weightlifting competition. Female athletes feel they are being forced into silence on the issue. How did it come to this?

www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/females-told-be-quiet-transgender-issue-ex-weightlifter-2021-05-07/

I was musing about why sports such as Formula 1 and sailing are still, as far as I know, sex segregated even though it's the car or the boat that's doing the work. I'm assuming it's because strength helps when handling the g-forces generated by the car, and raising and lowering sails on the boat.

If you think the strength needed for sailing is just 'raising and lowering the sails', you've never sailed a dinghy! The forces exerted on the sail can be large and you have to control it; in the Laser class, women sail with a smaller rig than men and simply can't go as fast. If you can't pull in the sail to the optimum point, you're wasting wind. Balancing the boat against the sideways force of the sail needs weight and leverage; I'd have to be hiked right out at a point where a bigger person could just lean.

However, sailing is a good example of a sport which can be done mixed socially and for less serious competitions than the olympics - each type of boat has a handicap so someone in a high performance boat has to complete the course faster.

I’ve just been thrown off the Sydney Vegans Facebook page for talking about this. But not before they called me all kinds of names. I have been a part of that group for years.

So much for free speech.

Sex exists! You can make cosmetic changes to your body but you cannot fundamentally change the biology. There are times when this matters, and fair competitions of strength and speed are one of them!

Precisely. Cosmetic changes - so choosing to identify as a different gender - all come from a social construct of what each sex should do/act like due to gender assigned to sex (iyswim?)

It reinforces gender stereotypes.

Those with GD who make a physical change to their sex through medication and surgery will stay have had the hormone changes for the sec they were born into.

I find it astonishing that if a female or male athlete took a testosterone based drug to enhance performance they'd be banned for doping.

Yet a man who has grown and developed via the testosterone hormone can compete against woman because they say they identify as one.

There has to be a limit. People should be able to be and say who they want to be. But not at the detriment to another group. Trans woman should not be allowed to disadvantage born woman to advantage themselves.

hits out transgender weightlifter Hubbard competing at Olympics [[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-9557545/Sharron-Davies-hits-decision-allow-transgender-weightlifter-Hubbard-compete-Olympics.html?ito=native_share_article-masthead]]

"Dr Nicola Williams, director of British campaign group Fair Play For Women, said: ‘Female sports category exists so women have the chance to win. Here’s a person who was never internationally successful as a man, who can come into women’s competition and be an Olympic contender at 43. If you’re wondering if transwomen retain their male advantage, here’s your proof.’"

hits out transgender weightlifter Hubbard competing at Olympics [[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-9557545/Sharron-Davies-hits-decision-allow-transgender-weightlifter-Hubbard-compete-Olympics.html?ito=native_share_article-masthead]]

www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-9557545/Sharron-Davies-hits-decision-allow-transgender-weightlifter-Hubbard-compete-Olympics.html

Sorry don't know what happened with the link.

My hope is that this issue is really going to cut through now, because most of the time women's sports is pretty niche, but when everyone's sat round watching the Olympics on the TV and someone who was quite clearly "assigned male at birth" but is wearing some lippy steps forward at the women's weightlifting, folk are surely going to start asking what the hell is going on.

I'd have to be hiked right out at a point where a bigger person could just lean.

So true! I’d practically have my toes on the hull, glance sideways and see Friend’s Dad just tilting his bobble hat back a bit for balance. (Friend’s Dad was a national champ at one point many years previously, to be fair.)

How can New Zealand of all countries do this? Not only anti women but seemingly racist having pipped 2 Maori women of the 2 top spots... not to mention the runner up, who lost the podium placement.

A white, female, New Zealand woman, even a rich one, would not be racist to beat Maori women.

The problem is purely that Hubbard is male.

Oysterbabe if you reread his response as though it were a violent male attacking a female says it all really.

The MALE athletes and citizens should be speaking out too.

Mediocre people of the male sex, cheating, which is detrimental to everyone competing fairly, and sports authorities actively supporting it.

Thanks for the info re sailing. As you can tell, I've never sailed a dinghy! So that's another sport firmly in the sex segregation category.

Are snooker and darts dominated by tall men with long reaches? If not then other factors may balance the height advantage. And it could just be a matter of time before more women are competing at the highest level.

But I'm still struggling to find any sport beyond equestrian events and possibly snooker/darts where there isn't a clear advantage to being a man.

Is ultra-running sex segregated? It seems that this is one sport where women may actually have an advantage.

@UnkindlyMay

A white, female, New Zealand woman, even a rich one, would not be racist to beat Maori women.

The problem is purely that Hubbard is male.

Of course not. That would be a fair competition. I’m talking about the continued silencing of an indigenous population. Transwomen are predominantly older, white and wealthy.

@Twistiesandshout

How do we stop this?

It’s the public who need to stop this.

Athletes themselves ( men and women ) are banned from speaking about about this. It’s part of the code of conduct contract they sign.

They can’t boycott either or they will be deselected and excluded from their sport.

Maybe they should boycott then.

If you have a whole sport of weightlifting not competing and the only person who is willing to compete is a TW then they'll have to do something.

It'll be highly embarrassing for the Olympic committee if on the day they are streaming an event each athlete walks into and then states they aren't competing in.

Are there any transwomen playing womens' football?

I bet there aren't, because men earn so much more.

I don't know how these people can feel any sense of achievement. They know they are cheating. And why on earth do the sporting governing bodies humour them?

They can’t boycott either or they will be deselected and excluded from their sport

Hmm but if they all did it. I am not sure this is correct anyway - Lynsey Sharp spoke out about Caster Semenya (yes I know she's intersex, not trans, but many of the same issues apply) and wasn't deselected - and in fact most of the online abuse directed at her was more to do with the fact that she didn't support Scotland becoming an independent country. In fact in my view Lynsey isn't that good anymore but is still on funding.

The fact that Hubbard is from a wealthy white family simply disproves the 'uniquely marginalised' story. An indigenous male transitioning should still not be in the female competition. Thank you for that great link @NotBadConsidering

Im going to keep saying that Hubbard is not a 'cheat' and also doesn't appear to go for stereotypical femininity much (see again Abreu for someone who appears to have had extensive facial surgery and is much more into makeup; these visual issues infuriatingly may be part of why their story is less resonant. I'm also noting that the openness of press enquiry in developed countries and Hubbard's past career in men's competition are part of the story. We still can't be sure about the Chinese relay team due to the government's absolutely solid confirmation of them being women - whatever that meant. We are left arguing over who looks feminine. More damage to women's sport, which the TRAs then blame on us.

@NotBadConsidering

If you want to know the names of the women and girls disadvantaged by a small number of males competing in women and girls’ sport, there are some I have collated here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4175263--No-Trans-Olympian-List-of-women-and-girls-disadvantaged-in-sport-resource-thread

As far as I can tell - it’s not easy because the rankings don’t seem to be up to date - it is Charisma Amoe-Tarrant who is the woman who won’t be going to the Olympics as a result of Hubbard. She was ranked 3rd on the last listing of Oceania rankings as far as I can see.

Amoe-Tarrant is from Nauru, a tiny island in the Pacific with a population of just over 10,000 people. It’s a poor country, ranked 192 in GDP rankings. She was given the opportunity to compete for Australia after competing for Nauru in the Commonwealth games.

Amoe-Tarrant won’t be going to the Olympics because a white middle aged male from a multi-millionaire family decided to have a crack instead.

“Most oppressed community in our society”.

These women and girls matter. There are real women and girls disadvantaged behind these decisions and they never get their go, never get their say, no one even acknowledges them.

Nauru is a poverty-stricken ecological disaster. I can't think how much disadvantage Amoe-Tarrant overcame to be as successful as she is in her sport.

It is outrageous she should be robbed of her chance by Hubbard. It is outrageous that the sport's governing bodies are complicit in cheating her.

It is outrageous that the sport's governing bodies are complicit in cheating her.

This ^

The sports bodies are allowing this. They are eroding the rights of woman in sport.

They already have been slow to ensure equity and men are often financially rewarded more than woman.

She moved to Australia as a teenager after her mother died.

www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-16/nauru-weightlifter-amoe-tarrant-switches-allegiance-to-australia/11309604?section=sport

But sure, Hubbard is the oppressed minority here...

https://www.wimbledon.com/enGB/abouttwimbledon/prizemoneyyand_finance.html

This is a good table that shows it.

It took until 2007 for woman and men to win equal cash rewards in Wimbledon.

From the 60's where woman received 50% less through to the 80's where the gap was closed but they still won lesser amounts.

It begs the question why the attitude that men who compete and win in sport deserve more than woman ever existed. And also why now they began to recognise woman as equal counterparts to men with regards their achievements they then do a full u turn and irradiate female sex sport totally by allowing men to compete.

I do wonder if now woman can win as much as men it makes it more attractive to them?

So a trans athlete (who has gone through male puberty with all the physical advantages of that, but putting that aside for a moment) is allowed to artificially adjust their hormones. Their level of testosterone is still far more than would ever occur naturally in a biologically female athlete.
The argument follows them, that biologically female athletes should be able to artificially adjust their hormones to the same degree ie increase their testosterone to the level that allowed for trans athletes.
However, this is classed cheating (if you’re a biological woman) and would result in you being disqualified because to have that level of testosterone gives you an unfair advantage over other women...

@Smithermetimbers

So a trans athlete (who has gone through male puberty with all the physical advantages of that, but putting that aside for a moment) is allowed to artificially adjust their hormones. Their level of testosterone is still far more than would ever occur naturally in a biologically female athlete. The argument follows them, that biologically female athletes should be able to artificially adjust their hormones to the same degree ie increase their testosterone to the level that allowed for trans athletes. However, this is classed cheating (if you’re a biological woman) and would result in you being disqualified because to have that level of testosterone gives you an unfair advantage over other women...

Exactly 🙄 the concept of fairness only seems to apply to certain people.