That women shouldn’t be forced into silence over males competing in female sports

[Ikeasucks]

NEW Zealand has selected a 43 yr old transwoman to represent them in the Olympics in the women’s weightlifting competition. Female athletes feel they are being forced into silence on the issue. How did it come to this?

www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/females-told-be-quiet-transgender-issue-ex-weightlifter-2021-05-07/

But many amateur women showjumpers prefer to buy a horse from another female rider if they can, because its harder to emulate a male rider in terms of strength and force. Not all of course but it is a Thing.

There are many examples of female riders handing over a horse to male riders because it was too strong, Murphy Himself being a classic example.

A powerhouse of a horse, amazing across the country, but Ginny Leng gave up the ride to Ian Stark because the horse was too strong for her and probably most women. So even within the generally physically equal equestrian disciplines, there are some horses better suited to a taller, stronger man.

Hubbard is rumoured only to be in with a realistic chance of bronze in her Olympic event.

Which is bad enough. But like many, I am looking forward to this being brought to the forefront as its been going on too often already at non-Olympic level.

Its so hard to beat men. Sometimes in running races I've ran really hard and done well and won the womens' event or placed (not at any great level but locally) and sometimes a particular man will "adopt" you as the person to beat in the race or try to sprint past you at the finish. So effectively you are racing them rather than a faster woman 2 minutes up the road that you can't see.

And I can finish fast, yet I have pushed my heart to almost bursting point and felt that I didn't care whether I died in the process, and I will still often be beaten by a man who is finishing 25th or 30th in the mens' race while I am in the top 3. They are just bigger, more powerful, more ayrodynamic, have narrower pelvis, bigger hearts, more blood volume, a higher VO2 max, longer stride length, bigger muscles, bigger lungs and so on.

But still you will read some mens' comments about how women "just need to get faster/try harder/train harder". Michael Phelps has longer arms and hence his advantage is fair yes, but Michael Phelps' arms aren't SIX TIMES longer than his nearest rival's, which is the permitted amount of testosterone for competitors in Olympic running events! Yes, 6 times the amount of testosterone that has ever occurred naturally in any woman tested at the Olympics who hasn't failed a drugs test, and still the top 3 in that last Olympic womens 800m can't comply with the ruling and won't be allowed to compete.

Ahh, but you’ve only quoted SOME of my original post there.

Yes, I couldn't use the quote function because there was a quote already embedded in it, and I wanted to keep it pertinent. I acknowledged that you had accepted the need for sex segregation and thanked you for it. I still truly do not understand how anyone who knows what a man or woman is could possibly have ever thought otherwise, but we do appear to be in a state of collective nationwide hallucination at the moment.

@ChiefClerkDrumknott

But many amateur women showjumpers prefer to buy a horse from another female rider if they can, because its harder to emulate a male rider in terms of strength and force. Not all of course but it is a Thing.

There are many examples of female riders handing over a horse to male riders because it was too strong, Murphy Himself being a classic example.

A powerhouse of a horse, amazing across the country, but Ginny Leng gave up the ride to Ian Stark because the horse was too strong for her and probably most women. So even within the generally physically equal equestrian disciplines, there are some horses better suited to a taller, stronger man.

I sort of get this point but also don’t think it’s fully relevant to the one I made. I understand it in that it points out that physical strength can come into it, but my point was that it highlights that some* sports can be mixed. But like I have said previously, some sports do have more issues surrounding mixed comps. (My mare, if it’s relevant at all, can be ridden by male and female riders as she goes the same for everyone- on two legs usually with her arse in the air! So you won’t be seeing us at the olympics any time soon) Also the original post was about people being silenced. Once again I think we need more of a respectful conversation about it!

This makes me so mad when I generally love NZ.

And makes me think that I (due to lockdown grazing and a wonky thyroid) currently weigh the same as my 6 foot 3 husband. But he can lift the most ridiculous weights. Like his tool chest - I cannot even budge it off the floor but he can heft it up and move it to the other side of his workshop.

Biological men have a different physical strength to women.

(My mare, if it’s relevant at all, can be ridden by male and female riders as she goes the same for everyone- on two legs usually with her arse in the air! So you won’t be seeing us at the olympics any time soon)
I completely understand your pain 😂😂

Of course some sports can be mixed if there’s mitigating factor that eliminates the inherent advantage males have. They are few and far between, but it can happen. But even in such sports, it does sometimes come down physical advantage of some kind, aptly demonstrated by Ginny and Ian. Ginny was the more accomplished rider, yet she openly said she could not hold Murphy Himself. Perhaps that’s the thing? It’s not silenced in these circumstances because its accepted that some horses responed better to women and some to men (unless you’re Mark Todd, who could get a rocking horse around Badminton 🤣🤣)

But still you will read some mens' comments about how women "just need to get faster/try harder/train harder". Michael Phelps has longer arms and hence his advantage is fair yes, but Michael Phelps' arms aren't SIX TIMES longer than his nearest rival's

People always seem to think that Phelps is a kind of “gotcha” but his winning times over his male opponents were still very close, whereas the top female swimmers would never even have qualified in a male event.

Below is a post both notbadconsidering and I made on another thread.

In comparison, Florence Griffith Joyner’s world 100m record is 10.49s (with lingering suspicions). The difference between Bolt and Flo Jo is almost 10%. Tens of thousands of males have run faster than Flo Jo, including boys still at school.

Similarly, when Phelps won the 100m butterfly in the 2008 Olympics he did so with a time of 50.58, faster by 0.01 second than the second place getter. No doubt his “natural physical advantages” ... helped with this narrow win.

However, the Australian woman who won this event in 2008 did so with a time of 57.05 - she wouldn’t have even qualified for the male events.

Once again I think we need more of a respectful conversation about it!

Then may I suggest that you take this call for respect and discussion to Twitter rather than here?

Because as angry as we may seem on here, and I will allow there is the odd actual transphobic comment (which get deleted), I've never seen anyone on here call for trans people to be raped, murdered or choke on genitals of any description. I've never seen anyone revelling in harming trans people. Go on Twitter and many other places, though, and see what you get. See what J K Rowling got.

It's not the natal women who are being...rude.

@Bambam2019 I think an open category will devalue women's sports to some extent because it will be the category to try for for women too. But I don't think it will make a mockery of women's sport in the way that this policy does.

Also: Hubbard doesn't have to win. There are a very few spots in this competition. If Hubbard represents NZ, they will take one of the few top level women's slots in existence. Whether they get a medal on the day doesn't matter nearly as much, although it will be spun that way.

@DrSbaitso

Once again I think we need more of a respectful conversation about it!

Then may I suggest that you take this call for respect and discussion to Twitter rather than here?

Because as angry as we may seem on here, and I will allow there is the odd actual transphobic comment (which get deleted), I've never seen anyone on here call for trans people to be raped, murdered or choke on genitals of any description. I've never seen anyone revelling in harming trans people. Go on Twitter and many other places, though, and see what you get. See what J K Rowling got.

It's not the natal women who are being...rude.

Women really aren't allowed to discuss the issue, or indeed men who support us.

What happens in reality is that anyone who posts under their own name online will often be targetted by the trans lobby for harassment or threats, or if they get into a debate with certain individuals, they will be threatened with action for defamation. Now it is a defence to a defamation action that the statement is truthful or in the public interest, but since even getting a lawyer to write back and state this will cost at least £2000 and you could potentially run up hundreds of thousands of pounds actually defending in court, very few people will risk standing up for their views.

Or they will try and "report" you to your employers, or embarrass you online with an accusatory pile in.

Look at whats happened to JK Rowling. Any politician debating the issue properly would lose their career, as would any academic.

We obviously need better legal protection for women adversely affected by all of this and in Scotland, we don't even know if we will even be able to post on anonymously on threads like this, lest someone in our own household dubs us into the police for hate speech. Because biological sex is the protected characteristic not given legal protection in the new Scots Hate Crime bill.

So the law is really not keeping up in protecting women (as usual) and no one is doing anything about it.

[quote PermanentTemporary]@Bambam2019 I think an open category will devalue women's sports to some extent because it will be the category to try for for women too. But I don't think it will make a mockery of women's sport in the way that this policy does.

Also: Hubbard doesn't have to win. There are a very few spots in this competition. If Hubbard represents NZ, they will take one of the few top level women's slots in existence. Whether they get a medal on the day doesn't matter nearly as much, although it will be spun that way.[/quote]
Each country can only send ONE competitor in this category to the Olympics I believe. So if Hubbard goes, she will take ALL the womens' slots in that competition for women in New Zealand.

I was musing about why sports such as Formula 1 and sailing are still, as far as I know, sex segregated even though it's the car or the boat that's doing the work. I'm assuming it's because strength helps when handling the g-forces generated by the car, and raising and lowering sails on the boat.
Then in equestrian sports strength may help in urging the horse on or holding it back, but perhaps this is balanced by the increased weight of most men? Although in horse racing there is handicapping, it's taken a while for women to win the biggest races with the Grand National finally being won by a woman this year.
Even snooker and darts which you would think men wouldn't have an advantage in, are dominated by men.
Are there any other sports where men and women compete in the same events?

Used to be proud to be a New Zealander feeling extremely embarrassed today.

@MiddlesexGirl

I was musing about why sports such as Formula 1 and sailing are still, as far as I know, sex segregated even though it's the car or the boat that's doing the work. I'm assuming it's because strength helps when handling the g-forces generated by the car, and raising and lowering sails on the boat. Then in equestrian sports strength may help in urging the horse on or holding it back, but perhaps this is balanced by the increased weight of most men? Although in horse racing there is handicapping, it's taken a while for women to win the biggest races with the Grand National finally being won by a woman this year. Even snooker and darts which you would think men wouldn't have an advantage in, are dominated by men. Are there any other sports where men and women compete in the same events?

For a long time, women were effectively prevented from being professional jockeys due to being refused opportunities. The rhetoric was that they were too weak, or not strong enough, or better designed for having babies, etc..

Then a few made it and suddenly they are dominating the bigger races. A woman jockey has won the Hennessy Gold Cup, the Grand National, the Champion Hurdle and finished second in the Cheltenham Gold Cup, this year, which are the 4 biggest NH races in the UK. Yet their numbers are tiny compared to male jockeys, and flat racing is still dominated by male jockeys, despite women being lighter.

I think its also fairly obvious that women jockeys are generally more ayrodynamic and naturally better balanced than male jockeys, possibly because they tend to have physically shorter upper bodies and relatively longer legs. Many horses also just respond better to women. In horse racing, weight isn't an issue per se, because horses carry the same weight whether ridden by a man or a woman (it is made up by led weight).

But all that hasn't stopped them being held back for most of the history of racing.

Couldn't agree more. So much hate. I'm not particularly pro or anti trans by the way, but I've had to hide the Feminism topic on here because of the many threads. No escape from it even here.

Where is the hate? How can we discuss the gradual erosion of women’s rights without being accused of hate speech or transphobia?

I hope some person with money will stage a real women's power lifting event so we can see which woman would win.

@lonel

But then again I don’t believe that trans people want to compete in the section they identify with just because it Might give them a physical advantage. Maybe not most but some certainly hate women and enjoy stopping them from succeeding- they have even been quite open about it.

I know several. 🌸

It's ridiculous and most people surely agree. It really doesn't help the acceptance of trans women. I was going to write trans people but then I'm guessing there are no trans men competing in the Olympics, which says something obvious.

I feel sorry for female athletes as they could get into trouble if they speak out. Also, they don't get a vote on what the rules are. More and more people should call it out for them when they can't.

I don't know how a male could feel pride in beating females. It's a sport which is especially advantageous to have gone through male puberty for.

If they don't get first place expect such supporters to say there's no advantage to being a male in sports as if that would prove it.

I hate the argument about how certain athletes are just naturally gifted with longer arms or bigger muscles etc and so athletics is unfair anyway so adding trans women to the female category is no different.

(1) The categories we have are male and female. Not arm length or height etc.

(2) This just sounds like an argument to do away with the two categories and just have one. Which would obviously be bad for women.

@MimiDaisy11

It's ridiculous and most people surely agree. It really doesn't help the acceptance of trans women. I was going to write trans people but then I'm guessing there are no trans men competing in the Olympics, which says something obvious.

I feel sorry for female athletes as they could get into trouble if they speak out. Also, they don't get a vote on what the rules are. More and more people should call it out for them when they can't.

I don't know how a male could feel pride in beating females. It's a sport which is especially advantageous to have gone through male puberty for.

If they don't get first place expect such supporters to say there's no advantage to being a male in sports as if that would prove it.

It never ceases to amaze me what people will do to cheat in sport. Some people will blatantly break the rules and if caught, will make all sorts of fake excuses.

I guess some of them delude themselves that they're somehow entitled to win and that cheating is just part of their greater skills set. I think in people like that, they don't really think like the average fair minded person, and they have quite a deluded sense of self worth and can't conceptualise how badly it might affect another person.

I've confronted a couple of people who cheated in races against me, and their response was both aggressive and ridiculous (both were women). They were fairly abusive and critical, even when the blatant rule breaking was pointed out to them. Both were actually dq'd for breaking the rules before the prize giving!

The number of athletes who have been dq's for drugs a few years later is astonishing. They must know that there is quite a high chance of being caught and dq'd, but their thinking doesn't seem to go beyond the initial thrill of winning and its immediate aftermath.

So I can imagine that many trans women, with lots of political support and no effective criticism and hence no real risk of disqualification, will be delighted to compete against women and won't give a fig about anyone else.

It's the end of women's sport.

@MiddlesexGirl

I was musing about why sports such as Formula 1 and sailing are still, as far as I know, sex segregated even though it's the car or the boat that's doing the work. I'm assuming it's because strength helps when handling the g-forces generated by the car, and raising and lowering sails on the boat. Then in equestrian sports strength may help in urging the horse on or holding it back, but perhaps this is balanced by the increased weight of most men? Although in horse racing there is handicapping, it's taken a while for women to win the biggest races with the Grand National finally being won by a woman this year. Even snooker and darts which you would think men wouldn't have an advantage in, are dominated by men. Are there any other sports where men and women compete in the same events?

For snooker and darts, men tend to have longer reach and less likelihood of boobs in the way. (the things that dh can reach that I can't are way beyond the 6"height advantage he has over me)

I think someone mentioned this earlier but I didn't see a link posted boysvswomen.com/#/. Ordinary school boys can quite easily beat women's World records. Allowing biological males to compete in women's events is the end of women's sports.

If you want to know the names of the women and girls disadvantaged by a small number of males competing in women and girls’ sport, there are some I have collated here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4175263--No-Trans-Olympian-List-of-women-and-girls-disadvantaged-in-sport-resource-thread

As far as I can tell - it’s not easy because the rankings don’t seem to be up to date - it is Charisma Amoe-Tarrant who is the woman who won’t be going to the Olympics as a result of Hubbard. She was ranked 3rd on the last listing of Oceania rankings as far as I can see.

Amoe-Tarrant is from Nauru, a tiny island in the Pacific with a population of just over 10,000 people. It’s a poor country, ranked 192 in GDP rankings. She was given the opportunity to compete for Australia after competing for Nauru in the Commonwealth games.

Amoe-Tarrant won’t be going to the Olympics because a white middle aged male from a multi-millionaire family decided to have a crack instead.

“Most oppressed community in our society”.

These women and girls matter. There are real women and girls disadvantaged behind these decisions and they never get their go, never get their say, no one even acknowledges them.