That women shouldn’t be forced into silence over males competing in female sports

[Ikeasucks]

NEW Zealand has selected a 43 yr old transwoman to represent them in the Olympics in the women’s weightlifting competition. Female athletes feel they are being forced into silence on the issue. How did it come to this?

www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/females-told-be-quiet-transgender-issue-ex-weightlifter-2021-05-07/

Smithermetimbers it would also destroy their health. Female bodies don't react well to being injected with unnatural levels of testosterone. You only have to look at the array of terrible health problems suffered by the East German athletes from the 80s to see that.

@looptheloopinahulahoop

They can’t boycott either or they will be deselected and excluded from their sport

Hmm but if they all did it. I am not sure this is correct anyway - Lynsey Sharp spoke out about Caster Semenya (yes I know she's intersex, not trans, but many of the same issues apply) and wasn't deselected - and in fact most of the online abuse directed at her was more to do with the fact that she didn't support Scotland becoming an independent country. In fact in my view Lynsey isn't that good anymore but is still on funding.

Sharp was treated absolutely appallingly because she spoke out about Semenya:

A few hours after her premature World Championship exit last September, eNCA, South Africa’s largest news channel, began their sports bulletin with the following words: “We don’t ever like to rejoice in somebody else’s misfortune, but I think we can make an exception in this case.”

There followed a two-and-a-half-minute segment celebrating Sharp’s failure. Half the entire sports bulletin dedicated to a British runner failing to advance from the heats. It is no wonder she refuses to engage with such negativity.

She has also had pre-cancerous cervical cells removed.

www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/athletics/2020/05/02/lynsey-sharp-interview-didnt-do-anything-not-sure-apologising/amp/

My husband pointed this out to me in yesterday's paper. Just beyond belief. It's so fucking depressing that women's sport can't be spoilt by this.

I think the worry is that Hubbard won't win, and TRA will claim no significant advantage, ignoring the fact that Hubbard is far older than female competitors.

Disgraceful

It's terribly sad for those individuals who have trained for a lifetime and then this.
For the women she stole the chance to represent New Zealand.
For the women who compete against her. It's unfair that their choices are boycott their (almost certainly) only chance to compete at the Olympics. Compete and almost certainly lose.
Or if by a snowballs chance is hell they manage to beat the trans competitor; have their case held up as an example of why 'trans' have no advantage because one lost that one time.
I'd like to think this will draw the public's attention to it, but the public are generally uninterested in women's sports so at best it might get a double take.
The sports bodies that are meant to protect women's sports should be doing something- instead they are fuelling the demise of women's sports.

But I'm still struggling to find any sport beyond equestrian events and possibly snooker/darts where there isn't a clear advantage to being a man.

Shooting and archery, I guess? Are they mixed?

@wonderstuff

Exactly. It's a lose; lose; lose situation.
When the best thing you can hope for is the women get creamed it's no victory for women at all.

Coming to this debate rather late, sorry.

For me this also highlights the danger of suggesting that choices don't have consequences - that you can have it all.

I am of the view that sex is a biological reality, and gender a social construct which layers assumptions and stereotypes onto biological sex, so perhaps see things through this lens.

I do have compassion for those who feel for whatever reason they are being asked to live under the 'wrong' gender assumptions, and understand that they may wish to 'change'. However with all choices come trade offs. If it is so desperately important to your own mental health, well being and sense of identify that you present as female having been born male, then by all means do so - how far you go in terms of hormone treatment and surgery should be your choice.

But in making that choice you may have to accept that some other things will be closed to you in future - one of these may be pro-sports. This is not because trans people are being punished, or because of an anti-trans view, but to be fair to the whole.

Everyone has to make these trade offs in life - women who compete at the top level in sport for example throughout their teens will have probably not enjoyed many of the typical teenage pleasures in favour of training.

There are plenty of ways to 'affirm' your own identity which do not fundamentally compromise the rights of others, do those, but don't expect to take a male body into a female sports category.

I only hope sports governing bodies step up to address this.

archery has lighter bows for women and because men have longer and stronger arms they can pull back the string further meaning they arrow flies faster. The faster and arrow flies the less you have to adjust for wind etc meaning you’re more accurate so men always have an advantage over women

Similarly with shooting the women’s guns/rifles are lighter

@Askingforfriend

I am very torn on this subject.

Transgender athletes should absolutely be able to compete with the gender that they identify with. Intersex athletes should also be able to do the same.

Women cannot compete on a level playing field with people that are born male. Even if a transgender or intersex athlete is taking hormone blockers there are things that make people with male biologyphysically different that influences how they play... lung size, pelvis shape and angles of legs, limb sizes etc

I don't see a way of making it fair for both these groups of people. I don't think weight classes work... a 150lb man is typically stronger than a 150lb woman. A 150lb doesn't lose a bunch of iron every month.

I understand that one argument is that elite athletes are not normal people. They have many physical advantages already... they are taller or more flexible or have a bigger than average wingspan or lung capacity or higher natural testosterone or VO2 max. I get that.

I don't think a third category works or is fair to intersex/transgender athletes. You shouldn't have to reveal personal medical information in order to compete.

I don't see a solution to this. No matter what is decided it is going to be unfair for someone.

I think that women's sports are in danger.

Why are you torn?? It's not difficult. You concede that it is unfair so why should women be the losers?? Do you feel similarly torn when a female student loses a scholarship to a male?? I personally don't see why transgender people should compete in the category they 'feel' like. Their 'feels' do not trump biology and the hard work of women athletes. Your 'being torn' feeds in to the 'be kind' bullshit which is why LH has been allowed to cheat women out of their rightful place on that podium. There is no concession by women to be made.

Are there any transwomen playing womens' football?

The Iranian women's team is largely male.

Culturally gay men are under huge pressure to transition there. Despite the fact that women outnumber transwomen hugely it seems that a lot of transwomen are their best footballers. It's almost as if sex matters.

Transgender athletes should absolutely be able to compete with the gender that they identify with. Intersex athletes should also be able to do the same.

How about I identify as a child and enter your kids' local colouring competition.
I mean my feelings and pride at being able to stay within the lines are much more important than your child's chances, confidence and wellbeing, right?

This is why women are losing everything. People like you offer them up without a second thought. Where are your critical thinking skills?

Jaiyah Salua is a male footballer - and plays for a men's team. That's the way forward. I did read some suggestion that she might move to a female team at some point in transition but I hope not. We should leave behind the world where trans people hid their past, and move forward to one where transition means some things change but others definitely don't, including your sport category.

it's going to be unfair for someone
Why does that "someone" have to be women?

But in making that choice you may have to accept that some other things will be closed to you in future - one of these may be pro-sports. This is not because trans people are being punished, or because of an anti-trans view, but to be fair to the whole

Pro and elite sports are NOT closed to trans people. They can play under the same conditions as everyone else - which are to compete in their own age, sex and disability category.

Trans age athletes can’t compete in older age groups.

Self identified disabled athletes can’t compete in para sport, or in classes of para sport that they don’t qualify for.

Trans sex athletes need to compete with their own biological sex. ( I use sex here instead or gender as sports are not separated by gender).

Trans athletes are demanding rights that No one else has.

Id agree with you entering that colouring competition Rebecca. Frankly your colouring is just more enjoyable to look at. The other entrants are a bit sub par and should just try harder.

I don't think a third category works or is fair to intersex/transgender athletes. You shouldn't have to reveal personal medical information in order to compete

You clearly don’t know anything about elite sport. Athletes have to reveal Plenty personal information to train and compete. They have to have drug tests. It’s far more invasive than having to reveal your sex or age.

I also use appropriate colours. Blue skies, yellow suns and green grass.
Not a pink blackbird in sight.

it’s going to be unfair for someone

No it doesn't. There is nothing unfair about a natal male competing in a contest set for natal males. Why does anyone think this is unfair? What pretzel logic is this?

But we have to disadvantage all women athletes to compensate for a male athlete's natural advantage? What?

Make the categories Women (ie female) and Open (everyone else )

Job done.

Of course that won’t validate and reward cheating middle aged males who want an easy route to winning, so will not happen.

I'd love to see the third "open" space for everyone who truly thinks sex doesn't matter and will put their money where their mouth is. The response to it will tell us volumes.

How long do you reckon it'll last?

@RebeccaOfSunnyHellFarm you go girl! Be your authentic self and ignore the haterz.

I will applaud you when you stand on that Podium for the children aged 5-8 flying the flag for trans age people. Brave and stunning indeed.

@I0NA

But in making that choice you may have to accept that some other things will be closed to you in future - one of these may be pro-sports. This is not because trans people are being punished, or because of an anti-trans view, but to be fair to the whole

Pro and elite sports are NOT closed to trans people. They can play under the same conditions as everyone else - which are to compete in their own age, sex and disability category.

Trans age athletes can’t compete in older age groups.

Self identified disabled athletes can’t compete in para sport, or in classes of para sport that they don’t qualify for.

Trans sex athletes need to compete with their own biological sex. ( I use sex here instead or gender as sports are not separated by gender).

Trans athletes are demanding rights that No one else has.

Sorry IONA - you're right, my wording was clumsy. What I meant really was that if your priority is your 'gender identity' (even if I disagree that that is a thing for me, I accept some may find it important) then you have a choice: Compete as your biological sex, or if this makes you uncomfortable or has an impact on your mental health, because your gender identity is the most important thing to you, don't compete.

BUt it is a choice you can't have it all.

I find it astonishing that this is a debate. IMagine how offensive it would be if an able bodies athlete, unable to compete in their sex and ager category were permitted to identify as disabled and compete against para-athletes.

To me a biological male, who has completed puberty and therefore developed all associated physical advantages over a biological female being able to deem themselves female and therefore compete as such is as offensive as if an able bodies athlete decided to 'identify' as an amputee and race in the para categories.

We are risking so much, for so many women, if this isn't addressed. I'd be totally happy for there to be a trans category, should there be sufficient numbers of athletes coming through who needed such a category. Why should women as a whole lose out to affirm those males who largely due to the bonkers and bullshit stereotypes and gender assumptions in society, 'feel' female?

@TwitterTwatterofTinyMinds

Coming to this debate rather late, sorry.

For me this also highlights the danger of suggesting that choices don't have consequences - that you can have it all.

I am of the view that sex is a biological reality, and gender a social construct which layers assumptions and stereotypes onto biological sex, so perhaps see things through this lens.

I do have compassion for those who feel for whatever reason they are being asked to live under the 'wrong' gender assumptions, and understand that they may wish to 'change'. However with all choices come trade offs. If it is so desperately important to your own mental health, well being and sense of identify that you present as female having been born male, then by all means do so - how far you go in terms of hormone treatment and surgery should be your choice.

But in making that choice you may have to accept that some other things will be closed to you in future - one of these may be pro-sports. This is not because trans people are being punished, or because of an anti-trans view, but to be fair to the whole.

Everyone has to make these trade offs in life - women who compete at the top level in sport for example throughout their teens will have probably not enjoyed many of the typical teenage pleasures in favour of training.

There are plenty of ways to 'affirm' your own identity which do not fundamentally compromise the rights of others, do those, but don't expect to take a male body into a female sports category.

I only hope sports governing bodies step up to address this.

Also late to the debate, and I agree with what you've written.

To further your line of thinking around making choices and trade offs, how does the current situation leave trans men? We are told that there are many more young women wanting to transition to male than young males to female, and yet their voices are not in this debate. I would love to hear their views.

If trans women compete in women's categories, by the same logic, trans men must compete in men's categories. Trans men who have gone through female puberty are very unlikely to win if they are competing against people of the male sex. Are trans men really pushing for these changes? It seems as though yet again, natal born women are disadvantaged.

As an athlete, you already have to give up some privacy and medical information in terms of medications (in the context of drug testing). Hormonal medications will be relevant. I don’t see why a third category is unfair. There could be specific categories for this to cater for people with differing types of intersex or hormonal medication. There are specific sporting events for veterans or tournaments that involve specific nations. Different weight categories have arisen in certain sports - eg lightweight rowing. So I don’t see why a 3rd or more categories shouldn’t be implemented.