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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think we won't see a Labour Government again for many years?

750 replies

Rosehip10 · 08/05/2021 09:17

Even discounting the changes in the ex-industrial former "red-wall" seats, no Labour leader has ever become Prime Minister without winning at least half the seats in Scotland. Even if Scotland does not vote for independence in the next few years, Labour is never going to recover there. If independence comes then it is academic anyway.

Combine that with the changes in the former Labour seats in the north (which I think will only continue) then a Government cannot be formed of London MPs, a few larger cities and some seats in university towns/cities.

I don't think Starmer is the most charismatic leader but I think any ppolitican would struggle to solve this. Very hard to try and appeal to ex-industrial seats AND young, metropolitan, middle class voters in London etc.

One of the best comments I saw yesterday was Labour trying to make traction of the conservatives being corrupt and stuffing money into places that voted for them, was people thinking "well all politicians are corrupt anyway, so we may as well vote for Boris to get some of that too!"

OP posts:
the80sweregreat · 08/05/2021 12:40

Labour getting a shadow chancellor like Rishi Sunak or a leader who can have the ' common touch ' such as Nigel Farage or Boris Johnson might help matters a lot. It's all about image and how you look and speak to people that matters.
(It is a joke really that people think Boris or Nigel are decent people , but it works for the tories enough to persuade people to vote for them )
UKIP has wound up and brexit is now ' done' but it won't stop the Tory vote
Maybe a few more 'tactics ' like this are needed ? Someone who doesn't talk down to people? Doesn't call everyone racist when they are not.

Most of my friends do identify-these days as middle class , shop in Waitrose or booths or m and s home owners, nice cars , bit of savings good jobs. Even those in the public sector are doing well with second homes and a decent pension. They hated Labour years ago , it's nothing new.
My friend is of Caribbean heritage (born in the UK) and she voted Conservative.
It's not just the white middle / working classes voting conservative. It's a lot more who traditionally may have voted Labour decades ago and now don't or voted lib dems.
I've given up trying to persuade anyone to vote Labour these days. People don't want a fairer society , only interested in themselves.
It's really nothing new , just become worse.

PronounssheRa · 08/05/2021 12:41

You're absolutely correct about the Tories uniting all the right-wing voters. The UK has become an increasingly nasty place to be for many people

Some Jewish people had advanced plans to leave the UK if labour had won the last general election.

This kind of tory = bad, labour = good thinking which lacks any nuance is exactly why we are in the position we are.

Alonim · 08/05/2021 12:42

It’s not difficult.

Our country is in a shit state. Problems need addressing. Labour needs to recognise those problems - not difficult, and address them.

Peregrina · 08/05/2021 12:43

Has any of the Labour elite actually done any real work? Have they any understanding of how most people live? Do they know any builders, scaffolders, nurses, labourers, factory workers, shop workers in any capacity other than "employee"?

Does this apply to Boris Johnson? When did he do a proper day's work?

I will grant that Sunak and Patel might well have done a decent day's work if they were helping out in parents' shop or pharmacy. Both offspring of immigrants, one of whom now wants to pull the ladder up against other immigrants.

Letsgetreadytocrumble · 08/05/2021 12:45

We're not. We're asking you to actually think. Apply critical thinking. Voting Tory demonstrates an absolute lack of thinking at all.

Critical thinking! 😂

From the party whose MPs go on TV and make statements like 'babies are born without a sex', or at hustings declare that they believe that a male rapist should be allowed to go to a women's prison if that want to.

Please.....

Peregrina · 08/05/2021 12:47

A things which puzzles me is that both Labour and Tory have had Jewish leaders, so at the top level, I don't think they are particularly anti-semitic. The rank and file may well be, but I don't think that only applies to Labour supporters.

The way that the Tories have re-absorbed the UKIP vote shows that there is plenty of room for racism and xenophobia in their party, which includes anti-semitism.

x2boys · 08/05/2021 12:47

@TheMoth

I'm just curious as to what positives people see in a tory government, genuinely. And not just 'I don't want Labour', but why tories? What ACTUAL benefits do they bring? Not vague promises of more jobs, which turn out to be zero hours contracts, but how do they help everyone?

There used to be a bloke at my gym, late 50s, ex army. Before the last election he'd always voted tory. It was only when he realised the policies adversely affected his son, who couldn't find a job, that he considered voting Labour. As someone who'd always voted for the good of the many, even if it wasn't necessarily to my benefit, it was a real opener to see him admitting that he only voted on his own interests.

So you are slagging off someone who has always voted Tory,even though you have always voted labour ? The irony
MildredPuppy · 08/05/2021 12:48

I dont think there will ever be another labour governemt. I think labour will dwindle and actually the tory party will split into a righter wing party and a more centerist party who will merge with the lib dems and they will eventually win.

Alonim · 08/05/2021 12:48

Labour is too complex. There’s too much to pick apart. Tories are a one trick party. I think in an increasingly fragmented and splintered world they’d be better off keeping the things very simple.

sashagabadon · 08/05/2021 12:48

People like Boris. I think that’s a massive part of it. Twitter generally can’t believe that to be the case as they are constantly trying to convince everyone he is the devil.
All that wallpaper nonsense was a good example. Twitter / media led in this non story for a week and presumed the public would be horrified but in real life no one thinks that Boris gives two hoots about his wallpaper and they couldn’t care less about the story.

smersh84 · 08/05/2021 12:50

@Peregrina I was a UKIP supporter and I'm not anti Semitic in the least.
cant speak for every member but there was nothing racist or anti Semitic about wanting to control our own country.

smersh84 · 08/05/2021 12:52

@sashagabadon that's it exactly.
twitter is not a true microcosm
as for Boris it is almost Trump like how he keeps going.
people don't care what he said or did as long as he does what he says he was going to.

ScreamingBeans · 08/05/2021 12:54

I'm just curious as to what positives people see in a tory government, genuinely. And not just 'I don't want Labour', but why tories? What ACTUAL benefits do they bring? Not vague promises of more jobs, which turn out to be zero hours contracts, but how do they help everyone?

I don't see much positive tbh, which is why I'm raging at the prospect of not being able to vote against them at the next election.

Voters don't vote for governments, they vote against them. But only if there is an alternative.

On thursday I spoiled my ballot because none of the candidates had answered my questions on women's rights. My vote will go to the candidate who guarantees that my employer will not be able to sack me for knowing what a woman is and will protect the rights of women to exclude men from spaces where we are vulnerable, irrespective of how those men identify.

cardibach · 08/05/2021 12:55

@BigWoollyJumpers

It’s not his programme. It’s the NHS

The NHS is part of the DHSC, under the Health Minister, which dictates policy and provides money ie: the government of the present.

They aren’t organising at vaccine delivery level though. That’s the NHS local managers. Care to comment in the utterly shit test and trace which cost billions?
ScreamingBeans · 08/05/2021 12:58

Care to comment in the utterly shit test and trace which cost billions?

It was shit. But people have forgotten about it because the vaccine programme has been successful. There is no point harping on failures that people don't care about, that doesn't win votes. If you want votes, you have to go for what people care about now. So cladding for example. That's a genuine failure and a disgrace. Why wasn't more made of that?

Blackberrycream · 08/05/2021 13:00

Racism is around and no party can claim a high ground but it was the fact that people felt confident to harass individual members to the point where Luciano Berger needed a police escort. Lots looked the other way as it was a bit inconvenient. If that doesn’t ring alarm bells what would?

It wasn’t words it was action. Action that was tolerated at the very least .

JudgeJ · 08/05/2021 13:02

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

Liberal coalition is the only answer.
After their last experience of being in a coalition I'm not sure they would be interested, don't kid yourself that a coalition with Labour would be any different than the last one!
pawsbaws · 08/05/2021 13:02

@AFS1

We live in a right-leaning country, run by a powerful right-wing media. The only person who has ever won an election for Labour in my lifetime is Tony Blair.

The only way to get the Tories out of power is for the centrist and left-wing parties to work together. They need to have pacts in place not to stand against each other. I appreciate that it feels somewhat anti-democratic, but it’s the only way I can think of to oust the Tories. On the right the conservatives are the only (slightly) sane choice. On the left you’ve got Lab, SNP, Plaid, LibDems, Green...it splits the vote too much in our antiquated FPTP system.

Absolutely this.
LovelyLovelyWarmCoffee · 08/05/2021 13:03

For a lot of women around me voting Labour is not even an option because of the gender identity subject. If the party can’t even respect us enough to accept that «being a woman» means something to us then how can we believe they will represent us.

MintyMabel · 08/05/2021 13:03

honestly just dont understand the British public, I never will. Covid incompetence, Brexit shambles and such blatant cronyism and provable lies (border in the Irish sea for example) yet people have still fallen over themselves to give them more power. I reckon they will get an even bigger majority in 2024

The answer to this is simple and has very little to do with “woke agendas” or manifestos that have climate change stuff in them, it isn’t even to do with ignorance or racism.

To quote James Carville, “it’s the economy, stupid” Not the macro economy, but the micro effects.

We’ve had austerity, sure. And people suffered, but the two things the tories have done for people who were traditionally labour leaning are Brexit and their response to Covid.

With Brexit, people voted for Boris despite a million reasons not to, because he promised Brexit no matter what. People voted for May because she was doing Brexit, and the other parties were stopping her. I’m not a natural Tory voter (nor a brexiteer) , but voted for her because you don’t change your manager in the middle of a difficult match.

Then Covid hit and despite the fact they have handled it incredibly badly, the one thing they did well was financially supported those people who would be really struggling now. And those people are not traditional Tory voters. They implemented a Labour style “welfare state” with generous furlough payments, supporting families (eventually) with free school meals, supporting small businesses (eventually). They didn’t do the Trumpian thing of only helping big business and leaving people in poverty. I remember being really surprised when they first announced it.

The two things that have caused a wane in support for the Tories were when they announced furlough would end, mid pandemic, and the school meals thing.

Had the Brexit economic impact (which is actually happening) not been masked by the economic problems with Covid, I suspect we would have seen a different result in these elections. Had the Tories stopped furlough last July and Labour were campaigning on reinstating it, they would have done better.

Even when a party goes against your views, the vast majority will ignore that if it makes financial sense. It’s the same reason boycotts for ethical reasons don’t work. People know they shouldn’t support, say, industrial farming, but if that’s the only meat you can afford, you’ll buy it.

When the Tories no longer have Brexit and Covid to rely on for support, and are then tasked with healing the economy which will mean deeper austerity than we have ever seen. When they go back to ignoring the north suffering in favour of the south. When benefit levels are cut even further and things like education and the NHS are further privatise and start to suffer, then Labour will see its base return.

People (largely) vote with their pockets.

Scotland is a difficult problem to solve. I’m not sure how the SNP stranglehold will be resolved, however, the signs are that their support has further waned in this election so one more term of them fucking things up, combined with a more effective opposition might just do the trick.

Nappyvalley15 · 08/05/2021 13:03

Labour need to deal more effectively with the trans debate and stop pretending that only bigots don't believe biological impossibilities and there is no clash with women's rights. Until they do that they don't have a cat in hell's chance as it makes them seem authoritarian (and determined to control your thinking) and insane.

They have to find a way to be sensible on the trans issue and protect women's rights to single sex spaces.

Women are watching and do think about this issue. Some women don't care but enough do in every seat to make a difference electorally.

Polls will not tell them this because people may not like to admit this to pollsters.

justasking111 · 08/05/2021 13:04

If you want a labour government move to Wales would be my advice.

Peregrina · 08/05/2021 13:04

I was a UKIP supporter and I'm not anti Semitic in the least. cant speak for every member but there was nothing racist or anti Semitic about wanting to control our own country.

With a Farage Breaking Point poster which was straight out of the Nazi playbook, you will have difficulty convincing me that a good majority of his supporters were not racist or anti-semitic.

lioncitygirl · 08/05/2021 13:05

Thank GOD.

LlamaDrama20 · 08/05/2021 13:05

@sashagabadon

People like Boris. I think that’s a massive part of it. Twitter generally can’t believe that to be the case as they are constantly trying to convince everyone he is the devil. All that wallpaper nonsense was a good example. Twitter / media led in this non story for a week and presumed the public would be horrified but in real life no one thinks that Boris gives two hoots about his wallpaper and they couldn’t care less about the story.
So much truth in this! When the ‘cronyism’ allegations over texts between Boris & James Dyson were being thrown around I heard several people saying they didn’t see what the fuss was about and that, if anything, in times of national crisis this is what they would expect a leader to do - pull out all the stops to make critical decisions fast. Furthermore, Dyson wasn’t asking for special tax treatment, he was simply trying to ensure his staff wouldn’t be taxed TWICE.

Some of the stuff the Labour Party get their pants wet about just simply doesn’t matter to the vast majority of the British voters I think, and moreover, it just ends up making them look unhinged.