To think we won't see a Labour Government again for many years?

[Rosehip10]

Even discounting the changes in the ex-industrial former "red-wall" seats, no Labour leader has ever become Prime Minister without winning at least half the seats in Scotland. Even if Scotland does not vote for independence in the next few years, Labour is never going to recover there. If independence comes then it is academic anyway.

Combine that with the changes in the former Labour seats in the north (which I think will only continue) then a Government cannot be formed of London MPs, a few larger cities and some seats in university towns/cities.

I don't think Starmer is the most charismatic leader but I think any ppolitican would struggle to solve this. Very hard to try and appeal to ex-industrial seats AND young, metropolitan, middle class voters in London etc.

One of the best comments I saw yesterday was Labour trying to make traction of the conservatives being corrupt and stuffing money into places that voted for them, was people thinking "well all politicians are corrupt anyway, so we may as well vote for Boris to get some of that too!"

@XingMing

Could we make one, here on MN? I may have had a glass of wine too many to be taken seriously.

It's a good idea actually.

@BonnieDundee He can't (unless the fixed term parliament act is repealed)

MN is huge. If people were seriously interested and willing to be involved, then it would be taken seriously very quickly. The quality of commentary from across the spectrum of opinions is much better than any other forum.

Part of the problem is that the current Labour Party and Labour activists just don’t connect with the values of the voters they need to attract.

It comes down to what voters hold as ‘sacred’ (I’m not talking about religion).

If you feel that burning the nations flag and defacing war memorials is a breach of the sacred then you are not going to vote for any party that seems to turn a blind eye to it.

Arguments about values trump economic ones. Brexit is a good example. An argument about GDP is never going to trump an argument about sovereignty if that’s what a voter holds sacred.

Whilst that may seem ‘little Englander’ to some, try looking at it from the other way around. Would an argument about GDP trump one about promoting diversity and minority rights to you? Probably not.

For those who criticise ‘little Englanders’ and their values, you’re on to a loser. Although you may win the economic arguments about redistribution and fairer taxation, you won’t persuade anyone by telling them their country is shit. It’s not expected to work in Scotland and Wales, so why would it be a vote winner in England?

As Matt Goodwin keeps saying, it is far easier for the tories to move left on economics than it is for Labour to move right on culture. If they remain wedded to their US imported identity politics (ironic, for a party whose supporter despise importing anything else from the country) they can expect to lose for a few more elections.

@Shehasadiamondinthesky love to know who that was. Is it on youtube ?

@FindingMeno

We had the opportunity of a proper Labour government with Jeremy Corbyn. Even when Labour finally get in again they'll be pale blue Tories, and not the Labour Party I want.

Agreed. I liked Labours policies under Corbyn. I know he wasn't popular as a figurehead amongst a few in the party and in the media but it was the right direction.

I was willing to give Starmer a chance and was keen for him to show his capabilities at first, but now it seems he gives nothing. Labour haven't even given any idea of their policies. What do they even stand for right now?

I am desperate for a political party to represent me and my family but right now, there isn't one.

@justasking111

Wales wisely swerved the trans debate by not engaging . Statue demolition condemned, I guess they govern with a light hand. As for taking the knee I cannot see Drakeford doing that in a month of Sundays. This may be the secret of their success. We do not do trendy here.

How do the Scots view it all I wonder.

Can hardly speak for everyone, but theres some strange things going on in some circles. A trans woman has been appointed CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis. Its attracted a lot of publicity.

The new Hate Crime bill creates new criminal offences and gives legal protection to every single protected category other than women. So ironically in Scotland, transwomen will have sex based womens' rights not to be the victim of hate crime, but women will not.

No-one is very sure whether or not you will be able to even safely discuss the issue in Scotland any more without being the subject of police attention. It might be that we have to drive over the border to post a tweet about the issue!

@Rosehip10

Looks like they have that in mind.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_2011

"However, the FTPA also provides two ways to call an election earlier. One is a Commons vote of no confidence in the government, which still requires only a simple majority of those voting. The other is a vote explicitly in favour of an earlier election, which requires a qualified majority of two thirds of the total membership of the Commons.[1]"

So they can call an election if enough MPs vote for it. Which I presume is why we had elections in 2017 and 2019

What on earth for? He’s got a majority of 82 now.

He would have to repeal the Fixed Term Parliament act first, although with a large majority that is a formality.

He then does have to time it right - while he is still enjoying the vaccine bounce and before travel opens up again, and the furlough scheme stops. September maybe? Early next year?

Which I presume is why we had elections in 2017 and 2019

Certainly why we had one in 2019. I would have let Johnson sweat it out myself. With no majority but still with the sensible moderate MPs in the party, we might have got a Covid Coalition which might well have avoided the early excess deaths and the bungs to cronies. Which is taxpapers money, so every bung to a crony is something that we have paid for.

MN admin: you've let this post rumble on for how many pages, proving that many of your subscribers are as politically ignorant as people accuse them of being?*

Are you suggesting that because many people disagree with today’s Labour Party, the thread should’ve been closed down?
That’s what seems to be implied.

@Andante57

MN admin: you've let this post rumble on for how many pages, proving that many of your subscribers are as politically ignorant as people accuse them of being?*

Are you suggesting that because many people disagree with today’s Labour Party, the thread should’ve been closed down?
That’s what seems to be implied.

Cancel culture at play. And then they innocently ask ‘why do people vote Tory?’ Hmmmm, let me think….

@supermoonrising

The UK is a completely dysfunctional state. 50% anti-Union in Scotland. About 40% in Wales. Similar in N.Ireland. And those numbers are only going to rise. When Scotland goes, the rest will collapse in a matter of years, Against this backdrop, who gets to lead the UK is like squabbling for Captaincy of the Titanic.

But don't forget if all that should happen, whoever is running the UK will still be left with 84% of it. England's the prize.

Erm except that if NI goes, it ceases to be the United Kingdom. If Scotland went, it would need to be renamed as the United Kingdom of England, Wales and N Ireland.

Compare with the last renaming when it went from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, to Great Britain and N Ireland - which was within the lifetime of my late DF.

@MmeLaraque

MN admin: you've let this post rumble on for *how many pages, proving that many of your subscribers are as politically ignorant as people accuse them of being?

So many people in this thread could easily have been sucked in by Farage/UKIP/ the BNP and so on. How embarrassing for them, and MN. This would appear to be MN's core audience. Ick.

I don't like the nasty people attacking my politics so they must be silenced. And Labour supporters wonder why people vote Tory.

But Labour ought to wonder why people vote Tory when the policies they espouse don't seem to favour the ordinary voter.

@Peregrina

Erm except that if NI goes, it ceases to be the United Kingdom. If Scotland went, it would need to be renamed as the United Kingdom of England, Wales and N Ireland.

Compare with the last renaming when it went from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, to Great Britain and N Ireland - which was within the lifetime of my late DF.

Remember, if the original British plan had worked in 1922, all of Ireland would have gone. NI was only hung onto because it was the least worst option available once it was clear the British plan was unworkable. Britain holding on to NI was only ever intended as a short term, slightly grubby, political fix. It was never supposed to last as long as it has.

Starmer is dull as dishwater. His only plus point is that he isn't Corbyn.

I think Jess Phillips is very capable and knows how to inspire people but she (and any other candidate) will be held back by Labour party structure, in-fighting and Momentum. Until they stop hankering after the Unions of the 1950s and accept that society has changed, they won't be elected.

Good to see Andy Burnham got back in though.

Labour Party used to represent the Steel Workers and the Miners . Blue collar workers with good wages and powerful unions .
Who do they represent now? People on minimum wage in call centres/shops and cafes on zero hour contracts and no employee rights?
Don't think so.

@Mintjulia

Starmer is dull as dishwater. His only plus point is that he isn't Corbyn.

I think Jess Phillips is very capable and knows how to inspire people but she (and any other candidate) will be held back by Labour party structure, in-fighting and Momentum. Until they stop hankering after the Unions of the 1950s and accept that society has changed, they won't be elected.

Good to see Andy Burnham got back in though.

Why are unions so strange in the UK? In much of Europe, they work with employers to ensure a reliable hard working workforce while representing their members' rights and using collective bargaining to improve conditions in many sectors.

Here in the UK, many sectors have no effective unions whatsoever, mainly because they are almost like a dirty word because they have been dominated by left wing/virtually communist placemen, who are against any changes. As a result, women (again) are almost excluded from many unionised sectors in a way that doesn't happen even in fairly traditional countries like Spain (refuse collectors? Road maintenance? Underground and train drivers?) and they are paid disproportionately high wages for what they do and the qualifications they have, often with bafflingly generous overtime arrangements.

In fact, why is there so much left wing domination in the UK in general? The fact that the main opposition party has effectively been rendered unelectable by a small number of communists is astonishing. It can't be only because everyone has an uncle in a council job, or a brother.

David Milliband...

We can only hope, it's a shocking party at this point!

Haven't read the whole thread but noticed a few people commenting on Labour being too caught up in 'woke' and therefore losing sight of what's important to the majority of people and in turn losing votes in England.
In comparison to the SNP, Labour are positively amateur when it comes to progressive policy, and yet in comparison the SNP continue to gain votes in Scotland.

It seems that the gulf of values and beliefs between voters in different parts of the UK has never been wider and that is the clear issue.
Why would Scotland need Labour when the SNP are progressive, inclusive and represent the values of many, and the Scottish Conservatives are there for the old guard who aren't so progressive, don't like being told what they can't say or do and deeply oppose independence.

What Labour needs is an identity, and to appeal to the anti independence Scottish voter who are choosing to vote Conservative in an attempt to stop another indy vote.

They also need tips from whoever is behing the huge media SNP PR machine because it's scarily good.

Without Labour support in Scotland and the North of England they're done. They can't form a UK Government without a Scottish vote.

If Boris does decide to 'lovebomb' Scotland as is being suggested in an attempt to save the Union then I guarantee votes for the SNP will rise. Ditto if a bunch of mainly London based celebs decide to make a video. Just don't.

Union power can probably be explained by our history of leading the industrial revolution and the male dominated heavy industry.

A country which had industrialised later, with many more women in the labour force would probably have had less confrontational models.