To think we won't see a Labour Government again for many years?

[Rosehip10]

Even discounting the changes in the ex-industrial former "red-wall" seats, no Labour leader has ever become Prime Minister without winning at least half the seats in Scotland. Even if Scotland does not vote for independence in the next few years, Labour is never going to recover there. If independence comes then it is academic anyway.

Combine that with the changes in the former Labour seats in the north (which I think will only continue) then a Government cannot be formed of London MPs, a few larger cities and some seats in university towns/cities.

I don't think Starmer is the most charismatic leader but I think any ppolitican would struggle to solve this. Very hard to try and appeal to ex-industrial seats AND young, metropolitan, middle class voters in London etc.

One of the best comments I saw yesterday was Labour trying to make traction of the conservatives being corrupt and stuffing money into places that voted for them, was people thinking "well all politicians are corrupt anyway, so we may as well vote for Boris to get some of that too!"

This is what I don’t understand - people seem to have a very long memory when it comes to bad behaviour of Labour MPs, yet forgive BJ basically anything. It makes no sense to me.

We expect BJ to be a corrupt arse. We expect no better from him.

In the past, I expected better of Labour than of the Tories. That's why I remember labour crimes better than those of tories.

To clarify: when Boris (or any other tory) is classist, racist, sexist, dishonest, corrupt, cruel or any other Bad Thing, I don't feel let down by them. I don't expect any better.

When Labour does it, they've let me down.

Yes, I did the blame game !! It's true
I was making the point that it doesn't get anyone ( including me ) anywhere really !
Also the point that Labour misdemeanors are remembered and Tory ones are 'airbrushed. '

The Blairs came in for a lot of flak for their money making ventures.

To clarify: when Boris (or any other tory) is classist, racist, sexist, dishonest, corrupt, cruel or any other Bad Thing, I don't feel let down by them. I don't expect any better.

But this is what I don't understand, I know quite a lot of 'old fashioned Tories' who would normally be horrified by Johnson's behaviour, as I am sure Thatcher would have been, but they don't seem to be speaking out. However one person last week, who I was sure was in that category, said he'd voted LibDem.

Labour’s rhetoric is just poor on so many fronts.

In the council elections for my area they gained a small number of seats yet the leader of council (Labour) has come on social media since crowing about their aim being to remove the remaining conservative councillors and make it a full labour council. Rather than say thanks for the votes, we will work hard to deliver what we promised and listen to residents etc. Even when winning there’s a bitterness to their politics that basically says to me (as someone who has voted for non labour parties) that they hate me, hate conservatives and don’t want to represent any one that votes differently. Words like ‘rid’ get used, do they not see how divisive that is?

At a national level, the calibre of MPs seem weak and caught up in issues not important to the electorate. Labour councils also always seem bloated and full of jobs for the boys like in Liverpool. So hard to believe they have the moral high ground when they are trying to moan about the conservatives sleeze.

Ultimately the party is run for Labour Party members who are out of touch with the average persons views, hence the sneering and name calling before claiming disbelief and being mystified at why people don’t vote for labour. Rinse and repeat every election. They don’t listen and until they do, they won’t be electable.

In the late 80s and early 90s people were saying the same after the disastrous Kinnock years. Then came along Tony Blair who turned it around very quickly

Labour were out of power for nearly 20 years. I don't call that quick!

Kinnock had many flaws, but Blair could never have succeeded without the groundwork that Kinnock put into removing Militant and curbing the crazier TU commitments. Corbyn has undone all that good work and handed power to a bunch of metropolitan ideologues with fuck-all idea about normal life, into the bargain. My fear for Starmer is that - like Kinnock - it will take all his energy to fight the internal battles to get Labour back into a vaguely electable shape. He can't focus on combatting the Tories because he's too busy clearing up Corbyn's toxic legacy.

Attlee of course had a stonking win in 1945. It's always said that Labour relies on Scotland and Wales but looking at a map from that time, it's hard to tell if that was the case.

Either way, it's unlikely to be the case now - Scotland is lost, and Wales doesn't have enough Labour seats.

@Ohthatsgreat

Labour’s rhetoric is just poor on so many fronts.

In the council elections for my area they gained a small number of seats yet the leader of council (Labour) has come on social media since crowing about their aim being to remove the remaining conservative councillors and make it a full labour council. Rather than say thanks for the votes, we will work hard to deliver what we promised and listen to residents etc. Even when winning there’s a bitterness to their politics that basically says to me (as someone who has voted for non labour parties) that they hate me, hate conservatives and don’t want to represent any one that votes differently. Words like ‘rid’ get used, do they not see how divisive that is?

At a national level, the calibre of MPs seem weak and caught up in issues not important to the electorate. Labour councils also always seem bloated and full of jobs for the boys like in Liverpool. So hard to believe they have the moral high ground when they are trying to moan about the conservatives sleeze.

Ultimately the party is run for Labour Party members who are out of touch with the average persons views, hence the sneering and name calling before claiming disbelief and being mystified at why people don’t vote for labour. Rinse and repeat every election. They don’t listen and until they do, they won’t be electable.

I thought Rotheram made this point very well. They need to quit telling people "we're going to start listening" and actually just get on with hearing what people want and acting on it..!

I didn't see Kinnock as the one doing the groundwork, and would have put John Smith in that role. He looked the part; he looked like a PM in waiting, and it was a tragedy he died when he did.

@YouJustFoldItIn

Totally agree Puzzled. I feel Sir Keir's frustration. The Labour Party is finished. It need to disband and regroup as two separate parties.

I tend to vote Tory so obviously it's all good news to me, but I still recognise the need for a strong, credible opposition and this incarnation of the Labour party clearly isn't it.

I so agree with this. I am not a Labour voter, never want to see them in power, or at least not with the kind of MPs they seem to have these days.

But we DO need a credible opposition. Giving the tories free reign to do whatever they like because they have so much support is terrifying. I haven't been a big supporter of the emergency laws and the removal of civil liberties during this crisis. Labour have not even questioned this. Just made clear that under them it would have been far worse.

I feel worried that these election results will give the tories the idea that the public love having their freedom constrained by a big powerful government and we'll get a lot more of it.

It actually took a lot of backbone to stand up to the far left as Kinnock did - as a lefty myself some of it (abolishing the LPYS for example) pissed me off but Militant needed to be sorted - they where bullying, abusive, anti-Semitic and dogmatic - they where perhaps more removed from the average voter than Blair!

John Smith would not have come to power as leader without that groundwork

maybe Labour could learn from Nicola I'm in Scotland and I do not vote SNP but Nicola never talks down Scotland or Scottish people even if they don't vote for her, she has her spats with Scottish Tories but there is no contempt ( some cybernats do have contempt but she is not to blame for them)
Scotland is great now and will be greater ( not it's crap but slowly we will make it a little less crap)
People with white scottish highland crofting ancestors are not to blame for racism or slavery and aren't made to feel bad for it
Having a Scottish Saltire or flag is not something to be despised
While there is a bit of our covid stats are better than England
She is careful to blame Westminister Parliament she doesn't blame the ENGLISH as a whole
She doesn't give the idea that voters are thick or bigoted
She however has swallowed the same kool aid pill that TWAW , the hate crime bill is not popular I know no-one in real life that believes sex is anything other than binary ( barring a tiny 0.001% chromosomal intrasex developmental issues) while acknowledging some people have dysmorphia

Labour in England need to be proud of England and while acknowledging historic faults be also proud of England's many many achievements, there is nothing wrong in being proud of being English of having an English flag, or wearing English football / rugby shirts
The gilet Jaunes in France are very anti the French government but they are not embarrassed about being French, ( however they also feel the French Government despises them for not being Parisian enough etc Paris centric is a thing just like London centric is and it's not a vote winner outside Paris or London)

@Thatisnotwhatisaid

I agree and it pisses me off. Every election I’ve been allowed to vote in has not gone my way. I don’t want a Tory government and I didn’t want Brexit. It makes me feel like my vote is totally pointless, I feel powerless.

This made me laugh.

I am not a Labour voter, never want to see them in power

But we DO need a credible opposition. Giving the tories free reign to do whatever they like because they have so much support is terrifying. I haven't been a big supporter of the emergency laws and the removal of civil liberties during this crisis. Labour have not even questioned this. Just made clear that under them it would have been far worse

I feel worried that these election results will give the tories the idea that the public love having their freedom constrained by a big powerful government and we'll get a lot more of it

Don't really understand what your trying to say.... under our system, there is no such thing as a strong opposition, govt has a majority and can do what it likes, only the HoL can hold them too account and temporarily block law.
If they have a very small majority, then as we saw in 2017 onward, we have indecisive law making.

You also have no idea what Labour would have done on freedoms, its hard to believe they could possibly have done worse!
We've had 3 horrendous lockdowns and borrowing is in the trillions

Yet still you vote for them?

So long as they keep getting into power, they will take that as "Do as thy will shall be the whole of the law"

I agree and it pisses me off. Every election I’ve been allowed to vote in has not gone my way. I don’t want a Tory government and I didn’t want Brexit. It makes me feel like my vote is totally pointless, I feel powerless

This made me laugh

You are obviously not a big believer in democracy

Maybe one day the nice Labour party will follow the nasty Tory party and give a lady a chance.

I vote Tory as Labour stopped giving a damn about people like me. I do wish they'd give heads wobbles though as frankly they are an abysmal opposition.

Wallpaper? And? We're in the middle of a bloody pandemic and that's the sum of your opposition?

By the way, I also love how Andy Burnham is selling his win as something meaningful. Under 50% of a 35% turnout...Will of the people and all that.

As Janice Turner wrote in the Times today..Labour activists dont want power , they want ideological purity . Eternal opposition is the very heaven ..no responsibility , no actual nitty gritty policies , just never ending Peoples Judean Front v Judean Peoples Front, while a few dedicated foot soldiers wear themselves out fighting for the historical role of Labour, to help the least to have more . It is utterly shameful that Labour have descended to this .

People saying "I am not a labour voter" why ? It suggests eternally fixed ideas so even if the government you voted for makes a complete hash of it, you'll carry on voting for them whatever. How will things ever change for the better ? How many have ever read a party manifesto ? People seem to vote tribally and don't give a single minutes consideration to the policies of other parties. It's so blinkered, hence areas in the south east have been tory since time immemorial. I doubt that blue wall will ever collapse although there are chinks appearing.

@TeacupDrama

maybe Labour could learn from Nicola I'm in Scotland and I do not vote SNP but Nicola never talks down Scotland or Scottish people even if they don't vote for her, she has her spats with Scottish Tories but there is no contempt ( some cybernats do have contempt but she is not to blame for them) Scotland is great now and will be greater ( not it's crap but slowly we will make it a little less crap) People with white scottish highland crofting ancestors are not to blame for racism or slavery and aren't made to feel bad for it Having a Scottish Saltire or flag is not something to be despised While there is a bit of our covid stats are better than England She is careful to blame Westminister Parliament she doesn't blame the ENGLISH as a whole She doesn't give the idea that voters are thick or bigoted She however has swallowed the same kool aid pill that TWAW , the hate crime bill is not popular I know no-one in real life that believes sex is anything other than binary ( barring a tiny 0.001% chromosomal intrasex developmental issues) while acknowledging some people have dysmorphia

Labour in England need to be proud of England and while acknowledging historic faults be also proud of England's many many achievements, there is nothing wrong in being proud of being English of having an English flag, or wearing English football / rugby shirts
The gilet Jaunes in France are very anti the French government but they are not embarrassed about being French, ( however they also feel the French Government despises them for not being Parisian enough etc Paris centric is a thing just like London centric is and it's not a vote winner outside Paris or London)

Nicola has Westminster to blame though. By separating Scotland off from the UK she magically frees Scotland from its history of slavery and colonialism. Hence there is no call to 'atone' for this in Scotland, as it wasnae them in the first place. Its like a huge absolution for Scotland. Factually inaccurate but effective.

Everything bad is due England/ Westminster. Everything good is due to Scotland. It helps to have an enemy and that's what the SNP have carefully crafted.

Having a Scottish Saltire or flag is not something to be despised

Or the Welsh Dragon.

The problem with the Cross of St George is that it makes a lot of people think Football hooligans, lager louts. Which is not a good look.

@ginandbearit hopefully Starmer can do something about it. That's what we want isn't it ? Janice Turner is a bit late to the game, needs to move on and look to the future.

Emily Thornberry never commented about flags. She said not a single word on that. Her exact comment was "Image from #Rochester"

The image showed (in part) an English flag, that is true. She had tweeted pictures of images with flags before but they were not controversial tweets.

As a not-truly-British person I will never ever understand that controversy.

@Onetoomuch

People saying "I am not a labour voter" why ? It suggests eternally fixed ideas so even if the government you voted for makes a complete hash of it, you'll carry on voting for them whatever. How will things ever change for the better ? How many have ever read a party manifesto ? People seem to vote tribally and don't give a single minutes consideration to the policies of other parties. It's so blinkered, hence areas in the south east have been tory since time immemorial. I doubt that blue wall will ever collapse although there are chinks appearing.

Ummm, the Labour vote has collapsed precisely because people STOPPED voting tribally.

People, like me, stopped voting Labour because they just made themselves so impossible to vote for.

It's not only women who are turned off by Labours denial of women's sex. We know that a woman is an adult human female.

I won't vote for someone who, when asked what a woman is, starts by saying "it's complicated..."

So, how many woman AND men have Labour lost to the trans ideology?

Likewise the tories 50% of 42% turnout in hartlepool. Not exactly the conquest the media make out.