Daughter thinks we are poor

[MollysMummy2010]

This is no way a stealth brag as I know I am reasonably lucky.

Between me and DH we earn £90k per year but we live in London and poor choices in our youth mean we rent. My 9 year old DD has a small bedroom but has lived in the same place all her life. She has (pre Covid) had all the opportunities her friends have had re clubs, activities etc and I don't think she is aware that we rent rather then own our home.

Some of her friends live in huge houses and she seems to resent us for the fact that we don't. I try to teach her the value of money, and also, that as there are only three of us, how much space to we really need?

I am worried she will be embarrassed but don't want her to be!
What do I do?

@Viviennemary

We lived in a perfectly adequate house but my parents could have afforded a much better one. It did annoy me growing up. My Mum said she wasn't spending her time cleaning a big house.

It "annoyed" you? Don't you sound nice. I'm with your Mum.

@RoseMartha I did an interesting exercise with 2 of my teens the other day.

Looked up average first salary.
Average rent on a 2 bed appartement in our local town.
We made a list of all bills including car running costs and diesel.
Eating out/ socializing
Costed up their wardrobes.
1 DC ended up with money in his pocket
1 ended up in debt by quite a bit a month.

I'd recommend it as an exercise. I often do it with students at school too.

I agree with lots of PPs.

Just because other people are far worse off does not make your DD feel better. She feels an outsider.

Far better to explain that no matter how much you have, someone will always have more / better. Big house? Mary's over there is bigger. Big yacht? Dave's over there has a taller mast.

Explain how she should really feel very glad that she is comfortable, warm, has enough to eat, and is able to spend time with you - and that she too can make choices about how she earns and spends money when she's older - and that actually - some of what you have is just down to being fortunate to be born in one family rather than another.

And that she will always have friends who 'have more' and she needs to decide where she stands on that.

Family friends of ours got very into a well-known MLM in the 90's. Their children were brought up with aspirations of - you want that house? Go get it! You want that holiday on a private island? You can do it! One of their DS's really took this on board. He was very academic and worked very hard actually (not in the MLM) and did very well. But NOTHING has ever been enough for him. His family, the way they spoke, his hometown, hobbies, lots of friends actually, and it has led to a lot of unhappiness in his life.

My DC thought we were poor because we have a free standing kitchen.

I posted this upthread but I'm trying again because honestly it's an eye opener and I think it might have been missed. I watched it with my DS(10) and he found it so interesting. It's about relative wealth bit it's done it a really interesting way.

www.gapminder.org/videos/using-photos-as-data-to-understand-how-people-live/

Make her watch Poor Kids: children below the breadline on BBC?

I second this. It was an eye opener for DC aged 6 and 10 last year. We also spent a lot of time in lockdown talking about structural inequality, the 'poor tax' etc. It can all be explained if turned into analogies that they recognise.

We are scruffy but well off (highly-paid jobs, multiple houses, and inheritances) though not super-yacht rich, but live in a rich part of a rich city, in a rich country. This means that their understanding of what was 'normal' was not even accurate for this country, let alone the wider world. I literally drew charts for them showing them where our wealth put us relative to others in the UK and the world.

They then briefly thought we were super-rich (i.e. Bill Gates type rich), so we talked about how what they saw around them influenced their expectations, and that there would always be some people better off, but that these people were really the extreme, and no we can't just buy a superyacht/fly first class everywhere. We also explained investments and talked through how we were planning for their futures and why we might prioritise some things over other, showy, things. We asked them to work through the same decisions to see what they would prioritise, and they tended to agree with us.

They then went through an 'I'm all right Jack' stage, which is where that documentary came in handy, plus talking a lot about how some families were struggling in lockdown. They see me volunteer with disadvantaged but very bright children, and I used some examples from that too.

My eldest is now a bit of a social justice warrior, and the youngest is definitely more aware of his privilege and understands he needs to use that to help make things fairer, though we are having to be careful with the messaging. I can see him feeling resentful that he currently has privilege but could lose that as things level up, so naturally he wants to hang on to it.

I am wealthy. I would say it has caused more harm than good with regards to my DC’s mental health....I’m being really honest about that. They’re both young adults and having easy access to money has caused us a lot of hassles over the years.

Children taken to ‘view the poor’ tend to behave spitefully to those they are supposed to be learning through, and those being ‘viewed’ tend to swiftly learn how to make their ‘viewers’ sorry, and then have to learn it’s really not the well off child’s fault their parents have brought them up badly and paraded them in such a way.
It’s a really bad idea favored by people who think they can buy or use others to short cut their way to everything.

Whatever your financial level, you put the work in to teach your child compassion, decency, and resilience, and internal gratitude emerges naturally from it.

Op your child will only feel “embarrassed” by difference if she sees herself as a lesser person than those who own more.

@MollysMummy2010

This is no way a stealth brag as I know I am reasonably lucky.

Between me and DH we earn £90k per year but we live in London and poor choices in our youth mean we rent. My 9 year old DD has a small bedroom but has lived in the same place all her life. She has (pre Covid) had all the opportunities her friends have had re clubs, activities etc and I don't think she is aware that we rent rather then own our home.

Some of her friends live in huge houses and she seems to resent us for the fact that we don't. I try to teach her the value of money, and also, that as there are only three of us, how much space to we really need?

I am worried she will be embarrassed but don't want her to be!
What do I do?

@MollysMummy2010 sorry if I’ve got this wrong, but could this be projection on your part? I read all your posts and can’t see any specific instances of your DD actually saying she’s embarrassed or unhappy. You state that you are worried that she is because her friends live in bigger houses. Perhaps she has commented on that? It’s a fact, though, not a judgment. You come across as quite defensive about your previous ‘poor choices’, your old car and the fact you rent. Maybe she’s picked up on this?

I used to think my parents were poor when I was about that age. I really worried about it (I actually worried we might be hungry and homeless one day, which seems bonkers now) and never said anything to them. When I got a bit older I realised they were actually rich and it was just that all my schoolfriends were insanely rich.

I think you need a two-pronged approach. First, discussing your own family finances to both reassure her that you're financially stable and also to clarify that you're not just being mean when you won't buy a massive house and a pony. That you're being sensible with your money, and that while she doesn't need to worry about the essentials, you do have a budget to consider. She's probably a bit young to go through your bank statements with you to look at income and expenses, but you should really think about doing that when she's in her teens. But even at this age you can talk about the choices you make with your money. "We chose to do X rather than Y."

Second, I think books are very helpful in giving one perspective on life. She's the right age for some of Jacqueline Wilson's, for example. And there are lots of historical fiction books for children of that age that will show actual poverty - and actual wealth, too. And then talk to her about them. What would it be like to be X? What would X think if they came round to our house? Would you like to live in X's house? Would you be their friend?

I find it sad that children are so socially conscious so young.

People tend to be jealous of others even though it is a sin historically anyway. So if you surround yourself with people who earn less you tend to be happy. That is what studies show.

it is all relative anyway. We live in a pretty big house in outer London (about 5000 sq ft) etc but my children all know there are lots of people better off and worse off. The big house has made the pandemic easier but I have 5 children and this poster only has one. Also lots of people rent in London and indeed most European capital cities where it is the norm. There is nothing wrong with it. People can be perfectly happy renting places. You don't have to find £2k every time the boiler breaks.

@SandysMam

A friend of mine grew up feeling poor, like she had far less than everyone else around her. It wasn’t necessarily true but her parents were strict and old fashioned and believed a child should not be spoiled with material goods. She never went without but her self esteem suffered badly. Each time her friends had a new outfit for the disco or a new school bag in September whilst she made do with her old but still functioning one, it chipped away at her confidence which she never recovered. She has lacked self esteem her whole life which really held her back. On 90k a year I would move somewhere she won’t feel like this anymore, even if it’s a cheaper rental area where you can get a bigger property for less.

This is down to your friend not her parents. I know plenty of people with parents with this attitude and they are all happy, confident, careful with money and almost all reasonably materially successful. The "self esteem" answer to everything is annoying. Giving kids everything they ask for isn't called "spoiling" them for nothing.

Show your daughter my bank statement. I work and have two children. A £500 overdraft. I have £1.98 in my bank until next Tuesday when £36 child benefit comes in. I bought a loaf and sugar today, and we’ll be eating pasta until next week.

This is poor.
Not earning £90k a year.

You need to walk your daughter round some poverty estates, then round some affluent estates, then your area. She’ll figure out the lie of the land then.

@malificent7

I"m desperate for a trip to India with dd for this very reason. Kids have no idea.

You're 'desperate'?! I know you mean well but I agree with pp, poor kids are not props to teach your kids to be grateful.

I was born in the sub-continent, go back often and would be at people doing this.

@Viviennemary

We lived in a perfectly adequate house but my parents could have afforded a much better one. It did annoy me growing up. My Mum said she wasn't spending her time cleaning a big house.

And your mum was exactly right. It's good to live well within your means and resources (which include the interest and will to keep and clean a big house). Several of my daughters friends live in McMansions, I wouldn't take a present of them

Set her a maths project.

Give her the median salary for the uk.challenge her to work out a monthly budget - use salary calculator to show how much goes in tax, then show her how much houses in your area cost both for rent or assuming an 80% of purchase price mortgage and current rates.

She sounds like she needs a reality check tbh. You could always explain to her what it would mean for your family to move to say, a 3 bed house - how much out of the monthly budget it would cost, and what she would have to give up in terms of activities or money for gadgets, to afford an extra empty bedroom.

I also think it's good to talk about jobs and money and how if she works hard at school she will have more choices about what she does work wise and how much she can earn.

Perhaps a good time to give pocket money & start a savings account ?

Apart from mortgage, we were taught to save up before buying

Some people outwardly have lots of "stuff" , but it may be on credit card or loans ?

I"m desperate for a trip to India with dd for this very reason. Kids have no idea.

I want to spend £1000s on a holiday to show my kids people in poverty....
There's something very wrong about what/how you are teaching your kids here....

Please do not organise 2 weeks volunteering with whatever your local charity for the less fortunate is. The poor are not a bloody learning aid for children of the well off.

And of you want to travel the world or have an amazing holiday just do it. Dont justify it by pretending it's to gain empathy or to "volunteer". If you want to help the international poor then give some money, there are plenty of ethical ways of doing that.

Get her some better friends?

But also teach her and talk to her about why it's not important to have so much stuff, about why it's not important to have the most expensive stuff. You know, teach her to grow up as a thoughtful, well-balanced person who knows what's important in life.

@Frazzlefrazle

See this is where I think you should use this to talk through your budget with her. We don't talk about money enough with children and we should. They need to see how adults budget and how much 90k actually get you. We live in a middle class market town and are probably in the middle income of our childrens friends however we are good at budgeting so we make our money go far. Our girls are very grateful for what we have and would never consider us poor. Also I don't mean sit down and talk through your spread sheet but just having those general conversations are good for then. The fact she doesn't even know if you rent or own is odd in my opinion. We rent and out children know this and they also know we are saving to buy a house which means no abroad holidays for 2 years which they are happy with because we have promised a dog when we do buy a house. They have to understand there are sacrifices to be made and no one has so much money they don't have to make choices on how to spend it.

I totally agree with having open discussions about money, balancing budgets, the need to tighten things in one area to get what you want in another. These should be everyday type of conversations, no big drama, moreso things like 'no we wont go to the cinema this weekend because we have 2 birthday parties next week but let's down load a movie and make some popcorn. Often what happens when you don't have that is that children fill in the blanks, sometimes erroneously and/or grow up with no concrete sense of how money works, how to budget, etc. I was sort of flung into the necessity of this when my exhusband and I seperated and my budget became tighter than tight and I felt I would do nobody any favours by pretending things were just as they were. I also dislike the idea of having being 'poor' (and its all relative) be seen as something to be ashamed of. Those are not the values I want my children to grow up with. As long as you are working and/or trying your hardest to provide and not being feckless or spending eveything spare on yourself, then children just have to learn and accept that this is the household and lifestyle they are living in and get on with it

26TableFlowerss

To add- it’s better to buy simply because you’re paying your own mortgage and one day that will finish and the money will be yours. Most people can only dream of earning that kind of money do I’m surprised you’re not saving to buy as it’s within your reach easily, whereas some people it absolutely isn’t and they’d do anything to be able to afford their own home, instead of paying off someone else’s mortgage
It's not always that straightforward. We got a mortgage and after 10 years my dh got ill and couldn't work, we weren't entitled to any help and luckily the bank were very understanding and we managed to hang on to it BUT it took it's toll on me I had all the stress of managing dh couldn't do it due to his illness. Instead of retiring at 61 I now have to work till i'm 70 if I can.
You never know what people have going on in the background.

Sorry went off on a bit of a rant there. But it's really not as simple as just buy a house, which is not the ops point anyway.

You can do a little game.
Both write a list of everyone you know (family, friends, casual acquaintance)
Beside their name, write the ways that person is different from yourself.
"He;s a baby boy". " She has long red hair" " She lives with her dad but not her mum". "She is very old" "He has a dog"

Compare your list of differences.

You can do another one; "the thing I like best about is ......"

" My favourite things about our family".

It's an interesting game

@NeverTwain

Show your daughter my bank statement. I work and have two children. A £500 overdraft. I have £1.98 in my bank until next Tuesday when £36 child benefit comes in. I bought a loaf and sugar today, and we’ll be eating pasta until next week.

This is poor.
Not earning £90k a year.

You need to walk your daughter round some poverty estates, then round some affluent estates, then your area. She’ll figure out the lie of the land then.

I strongly disagree with this. I think it is very unkind to bestow adult worries onto children as they have no power to do anything about it, they just worry and become anxious. I believe it's OK to share generally with regard to what is expensive and what is economical, and about for example different reasons that people have a lot/a little money, but it is never OK to lumber children with worries about survival. As parents our main job is to help our children feel safe, not to saddle them with unsolvable difficulties.