To say that being a vegan is no better for the environment than being a meat eater?

[OnlyInYourDreams]

Unless you eat only home grown, locally sourced products?

Obviously some people are vegan because they don’t like the idea of using any kind of animal products. But all too often people say that they’re vegan because “it’s better for the environment when this is categorically not the case.

Lots of fruit/veg have to be imported which is actually worse for the environment because it involves pumping man-made substances into the environment.

Products like almond milk are terrible for the environment because e.g. it takes 1600l of water to produce 1l of almond milk. Coca-Cola is practically a green product in comparison…

If people want to be vegan, why not just say you want to be vegan. Coming up with reasons such as “it’s better for the environment” which are just rubbish and laughable is only going to increase the amount of people who don’t take vegans seriously.

@jontyl your statement just isn’t true though! Animal agriculture is really important to arable and fresh produce agriculture. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of sustainable agriculture if you think otherwise.

You’re wrong.

I’m not a vegan but even I know it would be a lot more environmentally friendly if I was

NRTFT

@PlanDeRaccordement

The argument about killing a pig in 2 years is less resource intensive than leaving them to live full lives is total nonsense.

Without interference (factory farming, artificial insemination, huge amounts of medication to allow animals to live in such close quarters etc etc), there will be far fewer animals. Herd sizes will regulate according to the available natural resources, just like they do with species we don’t farm.

Use whatever arguments you want to justify consuming animal flesh, but ‘better for the environment’ isn’t a valid one.

I don't think it's a matter of vegan versus meat eater. It's a matter of what standards you set for your food, regardless of what you eat. If the human race ALL became vegans, please do not imagine a panacea of countryside. Mass arable farming would be required. To maintain the required soil structure to grow fruit and veg requires a high organic soil matter and a good soil structure Although there is currently more nutrients in the soil than it can cope with, if we were only growing crops at some point the balance would tip and you would need to apply them. So where do they come from? We could divert them from sewage works and apply human phosphorus and nitrogen to the soils, but that's costly and bad for the environment as well, needing huge amounts of carbon to treat it to a level suitable for application to land........or a return to animals. Nature and the environment requires a balance. It requires not everyone to eat meat, drink dairy, be vegan. We need to support local farming, small holdings, have a go ourselves. We need to stop pretending all vegans are good for the environment. Just like meateaters, many of them are very reliant on imported goods.

*Here are some facts:

-70 BILLION animals are slaughtered each year for meat.

-Humans extract five times as much food from the earth for farmed animals than for themselves.

-60 percent of mammals on earth are farmed animals*

The REAL fact is, without the 70 billion slaughter animals, need I be replaced with other food sources.

So if you look at a protein in your diet: Meat has about 30 /100g , Chick peas and other legumes around 20g, Tofu between 8-17g /100g (depends on manufacturing).

The shortfall in nutrition of plant based products will just mean that land used for animal feed or grazing is used to produce other crops - crops that don't do particularly well in the northern hemisphere ...

They have no idea of what is behind the vegan agenda, that's why. It is not common knowledge, for good reason.Interesting article here if you want to learn about the history

MarchXX I’ve read that - it reads like someone with an agenda served by painting vegans as deluded disciples of religious extremism. And it completely ignores the influence of cultures outside of Europe and N America, which is very significant where I live. Have a look at this if you want a more balanced view of the history, including Ancient Greeks, Renaissance, Victorian reformers and nonconformists and non-Europeans. 7th Day Adventists aren’t secretly running the world. Most vegans I know are vegetarians who’ve decided to take an extra step because they worry about the ethics of the dairy industry.

Anyway, as I’ve said before, I’m not vegan, and am far more interested in everyone making some change, rather than encouraging an all or nothing approach. I think vegans are generally sincere and not controlled by a secret cult, but too many arguments on this issue are concerned with highlighting others’ hypocrisy rather than everyone doing something to make a difference.

So many trees burned to make grazing land for cattle or the soy fields for the cattle. In fact it’s the number one reason for habitat loss and wild fires. If the trees were still there, think of all the carbon could be sequestered from the atmosphere. This is just one of the reasons veganism is better for the planet.

But these trees are being cleared from another country so that they can produce beef, we do not remove trees to make room for cattle in the UK.

Your average beef producer in Yorkshire is doing his best to look after his stock, look after the habitats on the farm, etc. He isn't clearing trees or feeding soya.

@ElphabaTWitch

Vegans look weak and sickly?

Have you seen Brad Pitt? Venus Williams? Lewis Hamilton? Not exactly people I’d describe as weak, or sickly looking.

In fact, I’ve seen a lot more pallid, sweaty meat eaters tucking into their burgers or sausages, elasticated waists straining at their muffin tops. 🤮

I appreciate that some farmers may not chop down trees or treat their animals cruelly. But we can't all eat meat from local farms. It is not sustainable. There's too many of us.

@ElphabaTWitch Weak and sickly? What the fuck are you on about? Some of the world’s fittest athletes are vegan. Here’s a pic of Patrik Balmounian. The Strongest Man in the World. And a vegan.

I appreciate that some farmers may not chop down trees or treat their animals cruelly. But we can't all eat meat from local farms. It is not sustainable. There's too many of us.

Almost all of the red meat sold in the UK is produced by family farmers though. It's a myth that we get good quality beef in a farm shop, and different 'bad' beef elsewhere. If the beef you buy is from the UK or Ireland then the chances are it is relatively local, and produced to the highest standards.

I appreciate that some farmers may not chop down trees

No UK farmer is cutting down trees.

They talk about deforestation. That is not in the UK. UK farmers plant trees!

At the end of the day, they could live in a meadow with fairies and rainbows but they're still going to die so that someone can have a burger.

theneverendinglaundry

Yes that's true. Though actually lots of people will have lots of meals and satisfy their need for quality protein without having to ship plant based protein sources from the other side of the world. But yes, I can't argue about the animal dying.

I have no problem those vegans or vegetarians whose objection to meat is because of killing an animal. My frustration is with those who go around the UK telling others not to eat red meat because it's bad for the environment.

@PMcGintysGoat but eating meat IS bad for the environment.

@PMcGintysGoat

I appreciate that some farmers may not chop down trees or treat their animals cruelly. But we can't all eat meat from local farms. It is not sustainable. There's too many of us.

Almost all of the red meat sold in the UK is produced by family farmers though. It's a myth that we get good quality beef in a farm shop, and different 'bad' beef elsewhere. If the beef you buy is from the UK or Ireland then the chances are it is relatively local, and produced to the highest standards.

Where are you getting your (mis) information from?

1/3 of red meat we eat is imported for a start, so what's your definition of local?

And what about chicken, by far the most commonly eaten meat.

And ham and bacon.

And the dairy industry.

My frustration is with those who go around the UK telling others not to eat red meat because it's bad for the environment.

But the farming of livestock is thought to be responsible for 14.5% of global greenhouse gases.

That’s more carbon emissions than all the cars in the world put together.

Lamb and then beef i.e. red meat are the worst offenders for methane production.

Ergo, red meat isn't exactly good for the environment is it.

All vegans object to slaughter and cruelty.
That's what vegan is.
People who don't eat meat for environmental or health reasons are called plant based.
It's a totally different thing.
So you have a problem with people who eat plants to reduce their impact on the environment.
Which is a strange take.
Shouldn't you be whining at people who make active choices that seriously damage the environment? Or who do nothing? Instead of people who do something and feel positive enough to promote it.

@RebeccaOfSunnyHellFarm

All vegans object to slaughter and cruelty. That's what vegan is. People who don't eat meat for environmental or health reasons are called plant based. It's a totally different thing. So you have a problem with people who eat plants to reduce their impact on the environment. Which is a strange take. Shouldn't you be whining at people who make active choices that seriously damage the environment? Or who do nothing? Instead of people who do something and feel positive enough to promote it.

VERY good point.

nanbread

Most of the imported red meat actually comes from Ireland (also not cutting down trees, generally very similar to us). In fact alot of it is UK meat that crosses the Irish border for slaughter then comes back as cuts.

@OnlyInYourDreams if I were to provide you with conclusive evidence that a vegan diet is more environmentally friendly than an omnivorous one, would you be willing to read it and change your opinion? I have a great deal of independent studies at my fingertips that show exactly that, but I don’t want to waste my time providing them if you’ve already made up your mind that you’re not interested in learning the truth.

British farmers don't deforest but it happens in other countries to provide low cost protein supplements especially in winter feed.

@stroopwafelgirl

I mean, you could say it, but various studies would prove you wrong.

True dat

@OnlyInYourDreams you really have no clue what you are talking about

But the farming of livestock is thought to be responsible for 14.5% of greenhouse gases.

That's more carbon emissions than all the cars in the world put together
This is NOT a fair comparison.
The livestock statistic is a lifecycle calculation, everything in there from birth to plate - feed, transport to slaughter, housing of stock, all of it.
The 14% attributed to transport is direct emissions only. The carbon-heavy processes of manufacture (mining, smelting, manufacture of parts, assembly, shipping to point of sale, scrappage) are not included.

It's very easy to find this out.