To say that being a vegan is no better for the environment than being a meat eater?

[OnlyInYourDreams]

Unless you eat only home grown, locally sourced products?

Obviously some people are vegan because they don’t like the idea of using any kind of animal products. But all too often people say that they’re vegan because “it’s better for the environment when this is categorically not the case.

Lots of fruit/veg have to be imported which is actually worse for the environment because it involves pumping man-made substances into the environment.

Products like almond milk are terrible for the environment because e.g. it takes 1600l of water to produce 1l of almond milk. Coca-Cola is practically a green product in comparison…

If people want to be vegan, why not just say you want to be vegan. Coming up with reasons such as “it’s better for the environment” which are just rubbish and laughable is only going to increase the amount of people who don’t take vegans seriously.

I'm actually vegan.
At the risk of sounding preachy, I'm vegan because I feel killing sentient beings unnecessarily is wrong.
I recognise vegan may not be the absolute best model environmentally. Ditto for health. However, there are certainly benefits that can't be hand waved away by claiming we're sickly hypocrites who have mobile phones.
I think as soon as you argue you're vegan for health or the environment, it can be argued that you could do the same following a reduced but local meat model.
But that's fine. Because vegan by very definition is for the animals. Not health not the environment. If those are the true motivations, that person is plant based and not vegan.
However, I am obviously going to take umbrage at people sneering at vegans for living in a non vegan world. Of course vegans drive cars. We don't have an eco alternative. Ditto mobile phones, which most jobs will insist you have.
As pp said, having a go at vegans for such is a shit argument and will be called out.

@RebeccaOfSunnyHellFarm

I'm actually vegan. At the risk of sounding preachy, I'm vegan because I feel killing sentient beings unnecessarily is wrong. I recognise vegan may not be the absolute best model environmentally. Ditto for health. However, there are certainly benefits that can't be hand waved away by claiming we're sickly hypocrites who have mobile phones. I think as soon as you argue you're vegan for health or the environment, it can be argued that you could do the same following a reduced but local meat model. But that's fine. Because vegan by very definition is for the animals. Not health not the environment. If those are the true motivations, that person is plant based and not vegan. However, I am obviously going to take umbrage at people sneering at vegans for living in a non vegan world. Of course vegans drive cars. We don't have an eco alternative. Ditto mobile phones, which most jobs will insist you have. As pp said, having a go at vegans for such is a shit argument and will be called out.

And I think too, the local meat model is vastly out of the price range of the majority of people who eat meat daily. Veganism or plant based is much more accessible for the average person - so if we were talking about long-term changes to people’s diets cost would be a huge factor. And arguably, an incentive.

veganism or plant based is much more accessible for the average person - so if we were talking about long-term changes to people’s diets cost would be a huge factor. And arguably, an incentive.

But only if they cook their own using grains, legumes and vegetables.
And to do that they'll need to be educated on how to cook plant based dishes, something someone on this thread has already said is brainwashing and pushing an ideology.
But if making a salad is so controversial no wonder we have a generation who obesity will be the biggest life limiting factor.

@Pumperthepumper I was addressing you, yes, sorry if that wasn't clear.

The land can still be held with cattle, it’s just not slaughtered/overbred/inseminated at anything like what it is just now. I’d love people to be able to shop locally without price hikes,
those two things won't marry up: longer-lived cattle will cost more, and also church out more GGE per kg of meat.

I 100% agree about plastics, allotments and artificial grass, though. It's always good to find common ground, and no, I'm honestly not being snarky in saying that.

*churn. Not church, even though it's Sunday.

[quote GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman]@Pumperthepumper I was addressing you, yes, sorry if that wasn't clear.

The land can still be held with cattle, it’s just not slaughtered/overbred/inseminated at anything like what it is just now. I’d love people to be able to shop locally without price hikes,
those two things won't marry up: longer-lived cattle will cost more, and also church out more GGE per kg of meat.

I 100% agree about plastics, allotments and artificial grass, though. It's always good to find common ground, and no, I'm honestly not being snarky in saying that.[/quote]
I know that, see my point below about the inaccessible cost of local meat, and plant-based being massively more cost effective. There’s also the added downside of welfare of local meat slipping if it suddenly had to keep up with a bigger demand.

To be honest though, I think we’re so far off anything like this being the norm that we don’t have to worry about it just yet. For just now I’d settle for everyone just trying a bit harder. Change one thing and all that.

And in that spirit of change one thing and all, Pumper, I wonder how many people who try and change one thing (go vegan) are put off by the sneering judgement as evidenced in the op.
Particularly at those who 'fail' at being vegan. Why try if you know people will be unkind if you succeed or fail.

@RebeccaOfSunnyHellFarm

And in that spirit of change one thing and all, Pumper, I wonder how many people who try and change one thing (go vegan) are put off by the sneering judgement as evidenced in the op. Particularly at those who 'fail' at being vegan. Why try if you know people will be unkind if you succeed or fail.

Yes, and I completely agree with your earlier point - how can you teach people how to eat more mindfully without being accused of preaching?

I work in a school and from time to time have pondered doing a cooking club. But my being vegan would be too much of a barrier, apart from possible complaints, if I did cook meat I'd almost certainly kill someone. (I imagine my meat knowledge is on par with the average six year old)

Its mad to think you'd get complaints, even when I was a meat eater I was open to new ideas and other food groups.

And goodness knows some kids and parents could do with some guidance. Some the packed lunches my year 6 child sees are a shocker. Someone she sat next to the other day had a Donut, cold chips, 2 chocolate Biscuits, and two pots of jelly.

schools to educate pupils on what healthy eating looks like

Many don't think that a vegan diet is healthy for everyone. That's the problem

Its mad to think you'd get complaints

It's likely parents would complain if cooking clubs are about 'encouraging' children to become vegan. Absolutely.

Why are we talking about KFC, Donuts, and biscuits? No one is saying that they should be part of a healthy omnivorous diet.

I feel killing sentient beings unnecessarily is wrong

Don't you care that humans are sentient beings too? Some do need to eat animal products every day to stay healthy. Don't humans matter?

@zafferana

You're right OP, although it's obviously not as simplistic as 'one is better than the other'. It really depends what you eat, as either a vegan or an omnivore. You could only eat organically and locally raised meat, which would make you a pretty sustainable and eco-friendly omnivore, vs. a vegan who yes drinks almond milk from California, eats soybeans grown on land that used to be rainforest and whose grains and pulses were grown in developing countries that are food insecure because their staple crops are being exported to feed fussy westerners, which would make your diet terrible for the environment. OTOH, if you grow your own or take part in a local cooperative veg box scheme and only buy Fair Trade and sustainably sourced food, whatever your dietary preferences, you would be doing something great for the planet.

It is an interesting question. There's a reason why crops high in protein and fats grow better closer to the equator - as they have higher energy requirements. And closer to the equator usually means developing rather than developed economies.

Is it generally possible for people in Northern Europe to have a nutritionally complete vegan diet based on locally grown sources only? I don't know, and a quick google doesn't yield anything scientific either.

@mustlovegin it doesn't have to be about 'encouraging' children to be vegan. Just encouraging variety and balance. It's not meat or nothing, is it? I assume meat eaters still eat vegetables, fruit and pulses?

The vegan ethos is very noble but very white - it utterly vilifies and damages the cultural practices of many minority groups, usually indigenous cultures. That doesn’t sit well with me.

I live in Northern Europe. I have not dropped dead yet.

As I stated before, I couldn't run a cooking group as I can't cook meat. Unless you fancy salmonella, as I have no idea what I am doing.
So whilst a cooking group wouldn't be promoting vegan food, I'd be choosing vegan recipes I could confidently make without poisoning anyone.
As gin has so timely proven, people will whinge about anything.

And gin, I believe the NHS over you, so no I don't think you need to eat meat to survive. However, I tolerate my omnivore friends and family because I am not an ass. They are always keen to eat my food because I am a pretty good cook (meat aside)

And my own beliefs on animal cruelty influence my own diet so I don't need to 'prove' I care about random strangers and their odd beliefs which can't be found on any reputable health site.

But thanks for illustrating exactly why I don't bother sharing my yummy food recipes with people who aren't interested in trying something new.

Jainism and buddism are the cultures that created veganism. So it's not as 'white' as you think.

It is very white indeed in the West when practised by white people separately from actual religious practices and beliefs.

I fail to see how veganism can be bad for northern European people and yet very 'white'.

I think what you mean is that some cultures like Alaska have very high animal protein diet (fish) for survival. I think that's absolutely in keeping with the vegan philosophy because it is:
Do no unnecessary harm.
If there's no other food and starvation is the alternative, it still fits with the vegan philosophy.
But that doesn't mean eating a KFC or a whopper will fly with the same logic. There are plenty of alternatives. But again, I am not really interested in what others do, as long as they aren't being rude about my choices.

I should have said “Western non religious vegan ethos” to avoid confusion though, my apologies.

That's a bit of a generalisation don't you think.
My Muslim friend very kindly told me about her relationship with food- there's a branch of Islam that encourages not eating meat- for kindness and respect it was all very interesting.
Funny enough it came up because we were talking about people slagging off halal meat when most halal in the UK is merely blessed and not slaughtered to religious specifications.
I know an Indian vegan family through my school as well. They are lovely and always bring great buffet food.

I live in Northern Europe. I have not dropped dead yet.
Your peanut butter curry sounds absolutely delicious, but out of ingredients on the site you linked, only three can be grown in Northern Europe (and even then two of them at a stretch): tomatoes, garlic, coriander.
My question was more out of curiosity, whether a vegan diet made completely out of locally grown food is possible.

Ok you've got me. Like a large portion of the UK I have no religion.
That many vegans are white is hardly surprising given the make up of the country.