To say that being a vegan is no better for the environment than being a meat eater?

[OnlyInYourDreams]

Unless you eat only home grown, locally sourced products?

Obviously some people are vegan because they don’t like the idea of using any kind of animal products. But all too often people say that they’re vegan because “it’s better for the environment when this is categorically not the case.

Lots of fruit/veg have to be imported which is actually worse for the environment because it involves pumping man-made substances into the environment.

Products like almond milk are terrible for the environment because e.g. it takes 1600l of water to produce 1l of almond milk. Coca-Cola is practically a green product in comparison…

If people want to be vegan, why not just say you want to be vegan. Coming up with reasons such as “it’s better for the environment” which are just rubbish and laughable is only going to increase the amount of people who don’t take vegans seriously.

Regardless of the statistics, the OPs premise is that doing nothing for the environment is better than doing something (possibly misguided) for the environment.
That's a really strange starting point. And I wonder if they spend any time scorning similar efforts at being eco.
For example, most people have stopped using plastic straws because they end up in the sea. But by OP logic unless they also use a mooncup, reusable nappies, wind energy then they're hypocrites.
In reality straws probably have around 0.0001 overall effect on the environment. But we don't tell people how futile it is because doing something is better than nothing. Incidentally, fishing equipment is a big part of ocean pollution, which is why being vegan could potentially help keep our oceans clean.
Unless they're vegan of course, then suddenly you have to live off grid or people pick holes in you.

Let's face it. Op and others aren't upset because vegans are saving the environment in the wrong way. They're upset that vegans, by merely existing, make them question their own moral choices.
I can't tell you the number of times someone has got aggressive with me because I said no thanks to offered meat or dairy. It requires zero preaching on my part to make certain people feel judged.

I'm not saying all meat eaters respond like this, but the op is a classic example of this projection. Instead of listing their own efforts for the environment they attack others. I know very conscientious meat eaters. They don't attack vegans. They could easily list several changes they've made and wouldn't belittle others' efforts.
This is projection. Pure and simple.

@PMcGintysGoat

I appreciate that some farmers may not chop down trees

No UK farmer is cutting down trees.

They talk about deforestation. That is not in the UK. UK farmers plant trees!

That'll be because the UK was deforested 100s of years ago.

Regarding celebrities virtue signalling this 'lifestyle', we have no clue what goes on behind closed doors. Some look as fake as the lab 'meat' they are promoting. For all we know, they may be tucking into a sirloin stake every day. We have no clue. Some of them don't appear to be that healthy either.

Elite athletes have massive amounts of resources at their disposal to be monitored daily, probably undergo sophisticated treatments and supplementing regimes most people could not afford. So it's extremely naive to hail them as examples of anything

@rebeccaofsunnyhellfarm I don't talk about my veganism unless I am asked because it provokes such a strange aggressive response. "I don't like being preached to" and "I will eat what I want thanks" are some recent responses I've had, when all I've said was "I'm vegan and would quite like to try that new nut blend in Starbucks".

And to a PP poster who said we should be consuming meat once a week...Why? I need meat everyday to maintain healthy iron and vit B levels. Supplements or injections don't work.

I don't understand why some can't see this constant preaching and 'promoting' can be extremely irritating. Not that I take any notice IRL anyway

And I care about the environment and I am against animal cruelty, but my and my family's health rightly trumps that.

Everyone does what they can. No one does it perfectly. For example in my family.

Buy local in season fruit and veg (from our local market shop when we can.
Adults vegan
Recycle
Subscribe to renewable energy
Have solar panels
Husband second hand hybrid car
Use appropriate recycling facilities
Buy consumables for presents
Buy clothes for warmth and comfort not fashion (do fewer purchases)
Have a very rubbish old phone

But we're not perfect.
Baby is on formula as I couldn't breast feed.
I drive second hand non hybrid car.
Live in a house in a non pedestrian area.
Have a mooncup and period pants but sometimes use tampons for convenience.
Use toilet paper not water.
Have baths often in place of showers.

So the question is do you string us up for the things we do wrong or applaud what we do right.
Then there are factors people can't control: Most people can't afford a new electric car. Most people are expected to have a mobile phone for work. Some people can only afford cheap meat.

Being eco is surely about doing what you can and that won't look the same for everybody.

I understand the health thing to an extent. My son is on dairy formula because they recalled the non allergy one. I'm having to give him formula for his health and so for the moment the only option is a dairy one (which makes him massively constipated).
However, foods are fortified with vitamin b. You can have nutritional yeast. Iron has plant sources too. But note, this thread isn't about your choices. It's about being negative about vegan choices. You do what is right for you. But if you go around telling vegans they're unhealthy or bad for the environment expect them to push back.
And no celebrities are not good role models. But since most 'vegan' celebrities are plant based not vegan, you can't really compare them with vegans. (An example of this is Beyonce, who eats plant based but does occasionally do chicken).

I need meat everyday to maintain healthy iron and vit B levels. Supplements or injections don't work.

What an absolute load of crap!

@mustlovegin why do you keep posting these obvious lies? All your posts are nonsense. Grow up.

@theneverendinglaundry. DH had the same for trying the KFC vegan burger.
I personally would not try it. Don't want to fund the company/trust them to not mix it up with chicken/don't like processed things that pretend to be meat.
But I don't harp on at DH because he does his bit and I do mine (he's much better at remembering to recycle unusual things for example).
I wish I had a pound for every person who's aggressively argued with my life choices. I've been meat free for 30+ years and would be a millionaire.
Ohhhh maybe I will introduce an unsolicited questions swear box.

@mustlovegin

And to a PP poster who said we should be consuming meat once a week...Why? I need meat everyday to maintain healthy iron and vit B levels. Supplements or injections don't work.

I don't understand why some can't see this constant preaching and 'promoting' can be extremely irritating. Not that I take any notice IRL anyway

So do you think people with pernicious anemia all die of heart failure?

Why would you need supplements? You can get iron and b-12 from sources that aren’t meat, is your diet severely lacking in vegetables, legumes and nuts?

It doesn't take me 1600l of water to make almond milk. 1 cup almonds, 2 cups of water. Make it every night before I go to bed. Ditto vegan alternatives. Parmesan nutritional yeast and seseme seeds gown locally for example. The only nice replacement I buy is Alpro cooking cream which is absolutely lovely. I don't really care about the environment and certainly wouldn't make any sacrifices for that cause and that's the point. Of you care for a cause you should be prepared to make sacrifices. I feel. Strongly that animals should not be exploited for human greed. That means not demanding expensive pretend products so you don't have to suffer any changes.

I’m not a vegan but it is a ridiculous notion to suggest that being a vegan has the same environment impact as being a meat eater. Omnivores eat fruit, vegetables, nuts & seeds, beans etc in addition to meat and dairy. Vegans eat the same bar the meat and dairy. Also those claiming to ‘need’ meat for iron and B12 is laughable when dark green vegetables and fortified cereals contain this in abundance v’s meat. If you want to eat meat every day then own it.

As a vegan I would be deliriously happy if every omnivore:
Ate red or white meat once a week
Ditto fish
Are more vegetable based meals
Relied on dairy less and experimented with spices and flavour

That's it. I'm not under any illusion everyone would go vegan, but even engagement with the simple idea of reducing has poor take up.

*Until you have a conversation with them. Then everyone supposedly eats meat very rarely and buys local.
** The same people who don't understand how you can survive without sausage rolls for one day. Call me sceptical, but I don't buy it.

@grantoderek

It doesn't take me 1600l of water to make almond milk. 1 cup almonds, 2 cups of water. Make it every night before I go to bed. Ditto vegan alternatives. Parmesan nutritional yeast and seseme seeds gown locally for example. The only nice replacement I buy is Alpro cooking cream which is absolutely lovely. I don't really care about the environment and certainly wouldn't make any sacrifices for that cause and that's the point. Of you care for a cause you should be prepared to make sacrifices. I feel. Strongly that animals should not be exploited for human greed. That means not demanding expensive pretend products so you don't have to suffer any changes.

It uses water to grow those almonds, is the point. It’s not how much you personally use once the almonds have been flown to your house.

these obvious lies

They are not lies. Supplements do not work for me. And I have said I have 10 years' worth of my own blood labs to know what I'm talking about

It's my experience. I'm not saying that everyone is the same

People should mind their own business regarding food and stop preaching

I don't have the stats to hand, but I'd be very, very surprised if raising a cow for 6,months+ doesn't use a significant amount of resources (food, water, antibiotics) compared to growing nuts or soy etc.

B12 is very difficult to get from plants - i think theres like one seaweed with it and one type of fermented soya. Everything else is fortified with it - the fortification is grown from microrganisms so i suppose not strictly vegan but i doubt they have a face or nervous system.
Lots of peoole who eat meat have low b12 and have to supplement too. In fact i believe the cows etc are fed b12 supplements anyway because so again you can just cut out the middle cow.

Injections are for people who dont absorb it whatever they eat. Vitamin b12 deficiency runs in my family

*Must love.
Would my reduced diet work for you? See above.

Anecdotal but my mum had vitamin b deficiency and had to get injections. She's omnivore not vegan. Apparently low vitamin b is a problem for older people particularly women as we age.
Mum now has marmite in hot water to drink (yuck!)
I don't think any vegans consider microorganisms like yeast to be sentient. Unless they're the crazy god anti wank sort of course.

@mustlovegin

And I'm worried about younger people and girls who may be gullible, misinformed and who could seriously damage their health by listening and blindly following this very pervasive activism.

People should mind their own business regarding food and stop preaching

Vitamin b12 deficiency is something for us all to be aware of. It can cause a lot of problems and huges numbers of women are being told its age and some are being misdiagnosed with early on set dementia. This isnt a vegan v ominvore issue.

Agree re B12. I have to eat chicken liver regularly to keep my levels up

You can get iron and b-12 from sources that aren’t meat, is your diet severely lacking in vegetables, legumes and nuts

There's heme iron (animal sources) and non-heme iron. Heme iron is much better absorbed by some people.

One size doesn't fit all regarding nutrition.

If you are worried about young girls all the more reason to get the right information on how to be s healthy vegan out there.
It's surely a bit like sex. If they're going to do it equip them with knowledge and a condom. Don't condemn it out of hand.

Also, no offense, but you don't seem very informed/interested yourself so maybe research it yourself before worrying about other people's ignorance.

The vegan society is a good place to start.

So any thoughts on the reduced meat dietary question above?