To say that being a vegan is no better for the environment than being a meat eater?

[OnlyInYourDreams]

Unless you eat only home grown, locally sourced products?

Obviously some people are vegan because they don’t like the idea of using any kind of animal products. But all too often people say that they’re vegan because “it’s better for the environment when this is categorically not the case.

Lots of fruit/veg have to be imported which is actually worse for the environment because it involves pumping man-made substances into the environment.

Products like almond milk are terrible for the environment because e.g. it takes 1600l of water to produce 1l of almond milk. Coca-Cola is practically a green product in comparison…

If people want to be vegan, why not just say you want to be vegan. Coming up with reasons such as “it’s better for the environment” which are just rubbish and laughable is only going to increase the amount of people who don’t take vegans seriously.

It also suggests that every meat eater cares if their food is grass fed. They don’t - most people want cheap, easily accessible food.

Surely not Pumper. Mumsnetters only eat local, grass fed, organic meat which has been offered a weekly reiki treatment in life and gently cuddled to death prior to butchery, and blow the expense. That's why they get two weeks' meals from one chicken

Dunno who's eating the vast amounts of imported battery eggs and meat products. Those dashed nethuns I guess.

@KarmaViolet

It also suggests that every meat eater cares if their food is grass fed. They don’t - most people want cheap, easily accessible food.

Surely not Pumper. Mumsnetters only eat local, grass fed, organic meat which has been offered a weekly reiki treatment in life and gently cuddled to death prior to butchery, and blow the expense. That's why they get two weeks' meals from one chicken

Dunno who's eating the vast amounts of imported battery eggs and meat products. Those dashed nethuns I guess.

Someone suggested earlier that farmed animals are actually happier than wild animals because they’re treated well before the inevitable slaughter, unlike wild animals who might die of disease. Incredible. They didn’t say if the breeding cow was also happier with all the insemination and the intensive breeding schedule and the removal of the young immediately though, so that’s still a mystery.

In all seriousness though, even those who are trying hard to ensure that they only eat high welfare animal products can be misled. The scandal over the Dutch intensive poultry farming where the banned contaminant Fipronil was found in the eggs didn't just affect eggs labelled "mean nasty eggs from unhappy chickens." Waitrose 'free range' egg filler and egg sandwiches were affected because although the slices of egg in them were free range, the law allows the mayonnaise binder to contain eggs from the least happy chickens in Europe.

Living vegan is much better than eating any amount of meat. 70 billion animals are raised and slaughtered each year for human consumption only. So many trees burned to make grazing land for cattle or the soy fields for the cattle. In fact it’s the number one reason for habitat loss and wild fires. If the trees were still there, think of all the carbon could be sequestered from the atmosphere. This is just one of the reasons veganism is better for the planet.

billionnaires are getting in on the act and buying land to grow soy and pea protein to make fake meat

Yes. And if anyone thinks this new fake 'meat' will be of any proper nutritional value they are deluded. It's scary

The bottom line is, people who don’t eat meat or dairy are doing what they think is best to live a more ethically conscious life. That’s it!
Exactly. I'm mid 60s and have been vegetarian for the past 30 years, vegan for the last 5. Blood pressure, blood sugar, cholesterol all at levels that would match any healthy 20 year old. My genetically matched brother, a heavy meat eater is type 2 diabetic, obese, and blood pressure through the roof without medication. He takes a cocktail of pills every day to combat his bad diet choices. For people who claim vegans look pale and sickly. Google "vegan athletes". There's plenty of them about.

Why do you need to take someone else's dietary choices seriously?

GenuineViolet your genetic make up may mean you can do well on a vegetarian/vegan diet. A lot of people can't

Also it's a fallacy that all meat eaters are obese, have high cholesterol, etc. You can follow a very healthy omnivorous diet and avoid all these issues

@mustlovegin

billionnaires are getting in on the act and buying land to grow soy and pea protein to make fake meat

Yes. And if anyone thinks this new fake 'meat' will be of any proper nutritional value they are deluded. It's scary

A high salt, high sugar, high oil, heavily processed vegan diet is no better (or not much better) than a high salt, high sugar, high oil, heavily processed omni diet.

The thing is you have to compare like for like. The omnis who eat a carefully planned diet involving a small amount of carefully selected meat or fish, lots of whole foods and minimal processed stuff are comparable to vegans who eat a carefully planned diet with lots of beans and legumes, focused on whole foods and minimal processed stuff.

The omnis who eat chicken nuggets, oven chips, breaded fish, croquettes, pre-packaged pie, pot noodle, and occasionally remember to have some frozen peas or microwave carrots are on the same wavelength as the vegans who are delighted that a Bombay Bad Boy is vegan and also eat fake nuggets and oven chips.

It's just as deluded to think that processed food vegans will become whole food omnis as to think that processed food omnis will become whole food vegans.

On balance some of the processed vegan foods are 'better' (in terms of greater fibre, lower fat) than processed meat foods, so if they are a stepping stone to someone moving towards a whole food diet (vegan or not), or a convenient once a month treat, they have a place.

My experience of junk food vegans is that they were junk food omnis before becoming vegan, and they're doing it for animal welfare not environment or health. Which is fair enough.

@GenuineViolet

The bottom line is, people who don’t eat meat or dairy are doing what they think is best to live a more ethically conscious life. That’s it! Exactly. I'm mid 60s and have been vegetarian for the past 30 years, vegan for the last 5. Blood pressure, blood sugar, cholesterol all at levels that would match any healthy 20 year old. My genetically matched brother, a heavy meat eater is type 2 diabetic, obese, and blood pressure through the roof without medication. He takes a cocktail of pills every day to combat his bad diet choices. For people who claim vegans look pale and sickly. Google "vegan athletes". There's plenty of them about.

Rip Esselstyn!

I'm a lesbian but I can still see the theoretical appeal, the guy looks like a classical statue

Also it's a fallacy that all meat eaters are obese, have high cholesterol, etc

It's not even a thing, never mind a fallacy. I never said that at all! I just gave details specific to me and my brother. I do not think all carnivores are obese and unhealthy!

Rip Esselstyn!
I know!! A bit of tofu and a few beans!
Who knew!?

Many farms are now harvesting the methane gas produced from manure to convert in to energy to heat their homes & farm buildings. More & more meat is killed & sold locally & more supermarkets are sourcing meat that can be traced right back to the farm it was produced on, was ethically bred, raised & cared for to higher standards. Morrison's gets the majority of it's meat from farms in Yorkshire, the exceptions being New Zealand Lamb & Danish bacon, all the Yorkshire farmed animals are slaughtered locally to reduce the miles travelled. Anyone wanting to be vegan, that is OK, but you have to accept that there are people who choose to eat meat & animal products.

all the Yorkshire farmed animals are slaughtered locally to reduce the miles

See, it's the 'slaughtered' bit that grabs my attention more than the fact that it's done in an eco cost conscious manner

The thing with animals is that they need to eat too and their food is often grown unsustainably and that adds to the carbon. Some UK meat production is on a very intensive scale, locally sourced isn't always eco. And meat eaters are also going to be buying veg with food miles.

Some meat production is sustainable. But not enough to feed us all.

It really is something that needs proper evaluation, gut feelings are often wrong. For years I was happily buying British tomatoes, delighted I was making a good local choice. Turns out British tomatoes are grown under heated glass and Spanish ones have a lower carbon footprint even when you consider the transport emissions.

@Nat6999 I genuinely have no idea why people go on about danish bacon, it’s the absolute pits. It is unethically produced on a large scale.

In all seriousness though, even those who are trying hard to ensure that they only eat high welfare animal products can be misled.

The same is true for a vegetarian or vegan diet. Look at all the highly processed vegan food that is suddenly available. I seriously doubt that this is any better than your average meat products.
The issue is far more complex than just saying one diet is better for the environment than the other.

The bottom line is, somehow we have to feed ourselves. Food is a necessity and big business. Generally not a good combination when it comes to human or main welfare or concern for the environment.

animal not main!!

@DioneTheDiabolist

For example, I bought a pig raised up the road this year, including the fat, which has been useful.

That is not typical of meat eaters though. UK meat eaters are more likely to be eating pork from Denmark than the farm up the road. Same with lamb from NZ. Most are eating animals fed on plant matter grown far away in a monoculture over an animal raised sustainably closer to home.

So what?

Most vegans are eating stuff grown unsustainably too. It's just another version of corporate agriculture that is shitty for the environment.

Veganism is not the best way to eat. The best way to eat from an environmental standpoint is a sustainably produced, more local, mixed diet. That isn't vegan anywhere, in a few places it will even be a meat based diet.

So you can't say veganism is better than a diet that includes meat, the OP is right.

@winniestone37

There is a stark difference between data and your opinion. The data shows that eating less meat, being vegetarian or vegan is better for the environment. It’s common knowledge amongst scientists and the information is readily out there for the general public. The real problem here is that you think your thoughts are facts. Your confirmation bias is like a five year olds and your incapable of self regulation. Rather than projecting your guilt onto other people who are actually trying to do something why don’t you try to make some constructive changes in your own life and grow up a little bit at the same time.

I don't understand where people get this idea.

Farmers who make a point of running sustainable operations know that mixed farms are best.

Computer modelling of different types of diets places veganism almost at the bottom of the modelled diets.

Historically, even in the most marginal agricultural societies where every calorie counted, people did not eat or farm as vegans. Which is you wanted efficient land use and as many calories as possible, you would under those circumstances if it was really most efficient.

This is not something that "scientists know".

Won't these animals still exists though and still need land and food to exist though and still crap etc all things that are not great for environment as such

Here are some facts:

-70 BILLION animals are slaughtered each year for meat.

-Humans extract five times as much food from the earth for farmed animals than for themselves.

-60 percent of mammals on earth are farmed animals.

Knowing these facts, doesn’t it seem that our consumption of meat is grossly unsustainable for our planet?

Computer modelling of different types of diets places veganism almost at the bottom of the modelled diets

Yet the most long lived and healthiest people even into old age are vegan.

Theres no debate really if you do your research. Beware the huge amount of mainly american meat industry funded propaganda usually in the form of lovely posters that make false claims designed to reinforce meat eating. A picture is worth a thousand words but the facts are false. Veganism is the answer and the land freed up allowed to revert to natural forest will do far more for the planet than mountains covered in sheep. Most long term vegans avoid processed supermarket fake meat or even vegan products. These are there for families with one vegan in them and for hosts having vegan guests. Cooking from scratch is tastier.

@Chant353

Living vegan is much better than eating any amount of meat. 70 billion animals are raised and slaughtered each year for human consumption only. So many trees burned to make grazing land for cattle or the soy fields for the cattle. In fact it’s the number one reason for habitat loss and wild fires. If the trees were still there, think of all the carbon could be sequestered from the atmosphere. This is just one of the reasons veganism is better for the planet.

But grass captures a little bit of carbon as well...