To say that being a vegan is no better for the environment than being a meat eater?

[OnlyInYourDreams]

Unless you eat only home grown, locally sourced products?

Obviously some people are vegan because they don’t like the idea of using any kind of animal products. But all too often people say that they’re vegan because “it’s better for the environment when this is categorically not the case.

Lots of fruit/veg have to be imported which is actually worse for the environment because it involves pumping man-made substances into the environment.

Products like almond milk are terrible for the environment because e.g. it takes 1600l of water to produce 1l of almond milk. Coca-Cola is practically a green product in comparison…

If people want to be vegan, why not just say you want to be vegan. Coming up with reasons such as “it’s better for the environment” which are just rubbish and laughable is only going to increase the amount of people who don’t take vegans seriously.

@Lourdes12 with respect, I am sure it wasn’t a vegan diet that killed your brother. As for the rest of your post, it’s a complete crock of shit I’m afraid.

OP why are you arguing with scientists?
The OP is probably disagreeing with science that looks at a narrow question and gives an answer which is misleading because it ignores other highly relevant information.

Does US feedlot beef produce lots of methane relative to the alternative/use lots of soya? Very likely.

Does UK grass reared beef use lots of soya? Nowhere near as much, if any. Does it produce produce protein and essential amnio acids from land not suitable for growing crops for human consumption? Generally yes.
Should the UK population be trying to make good use of domestically produced protein, from our upland areas rather than importing food produced on the other side of the world? Of course.

There are large areas of the UK that we can either use to produce protein for our own consumption, or we can leave our uplands to become a wilderness and rely on crops grown on the opposite side of the world, using scarce resources such as water, and needing to be shipped thousands of miles. People in this world are hungry, and yet we choose not to eat what we can produce ourselves from poor quality land. It is distasteful to claim a moral high ground about turning down what we can produce on our doorsteps.

Livestock are also important in maintaining habitats, and keeping the countryside the way we like to see it. If you're a ground nesting bird like a curlew or hen harrier needing short grassland to raise your family you need grazing livestock to produce that short grassland.

Oh and the argument about water that vegans often trot out. Livestock drink lots of water in their lifetimes - true. However if you are a cow in western or northern england, Wales, Scotland or Ireland, you drink water that falls out of the sky in huge quantities and is generally considered a nuisance. Most of what they drink goes back into the water cycle. Crops which are grown in dry countries (e.g. almonds) use lots of water when that water is a scarce resource. Huge difference.

Almond milk production in US is killing off the bee population in the masses.. and without bees we're truly fucked. look closely and everything humans do have an effect on the planet. Unless you are living electric/gas/car etc free off your own land organically. Human greed is the problem. Masses of food produced that we don't need in rich countries. Inorganic veggies have chemicals on them which humans consume and therefore enter the oceans and is damaging sea life including plankton which produce more oxygen than the rainforests. Destruction is everywhere.

Haven't read the thread, but there's a flaw in your premise.

Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.

Being vegan is for the animals. To do the least harm.
Even the vegan society just tag on environmental reasons as a lucky bonus.

There are many ways to cut down your environmental footprint. One of them is reducing meat. Many people simply reduce, don't stop.
What's the point in sneering at people trying to help? I don't see people jeering at people taking the recycling bins out.

@ninesevenfivethree

MarchXX very funny satire. Especially the idea that vegans are all eating for the second coming and to reduce masturbation, as guided by the vegan god 'telling' them what to cook for dinner. Excellent

I wish it was satire, it does sound unbelievably shocking. Unfortunately it is true.

@MarchXX I don’t say this lightly, but I think you need psychiatric help.

[quote 21Flora]@SimonJT copying and pasting statistics does not show the whole picture though. Ruminant animals are an essential part to the ecosystem. Everything has a purpose, ruminant animals provide food but also improve soil health and enhance microbiology. Arable farms that have reintroduced cattle as breaks in crop rotations have seen increases in rare species of birds because of the knock on impact of urine and manure.

People should eat ethically produced meat and less of it but ruminant animals are necessary.[/quote]
That is true. Ruminant animals are a crucial part of maintaining soil health. Monocropping, on the other hand, is extremely damaging to soil, causing run off and erosion. Not to mention destroying the delicate ecosystem which is maintained by a plethora of animals, birds, small mammals, insects, organisms, bacteria. All of these are keeping the life cycle continuing and caring for every creature within it cannot happen without our ruminants. Man has evolved and developed superior brain power because they ate meat. Looking at cave drawings of hunts confirms this.

If adults wish to eat vegetables only, good luck to them. I do not wish to be forced to eat plants, when animals are the best nutrition.

rebeccaofsunny

I have alot of respect for those who live a vegan, off grid lifestyle, having very little impact on others and eating what they can grow, etc.

What frustrates me is vegans telling my sister in law that she is doing some huge good for the planet forgoing meat produced 20 miles away on the side of a mountain, and instead flying vegetables, pulses, soya products from the other side of the world where they're grown to the detriment of local communities, resources and ecology. And ignoring that she flies abroad twice a year, buys a new phone every 9 months, and drives everywhere. If they want her to have a positive impact on the environment they would be telling her to walk, eat local, and holiday abroad less frequently.

[quote BellaTheDog]@MarchXX I don’t say this lightly, but I think you need psychiatric help.[/quote]
Thanks, @BellaTheDog. Isn't it strange how having a different opinion, and voicing it, means that person "needs psychiatric help" .

Is this really what we have become in the 21stCentury?

@PMcGintysGoat

rebeccaofsunny

I have alot of respect for those who live a vegan, off grid lifestyle, having very little impact on others and eating what they can grow, etc.

What frustrates me is vegans telling my sister in law that she is doing some huge good for the planet forgoing meat produced 20 miles away on the side of a mountain, and instead flying vegetables, pulses, soya products from the other side of the world where they're grown to the detriment of local communities, resources and ecology. And ignoring that she flies abroad twice a year, buys a new phone every 9 months, and drives everywhere. If they want her to have a positive impact on the environment they would be telling her to walk, eat local, and holiday abroad less frequently.

What does she say when you point this out to her?

I wish it was satire, it does sound unbelievably shocking. Unfortunately it is true

I agree with Bella. Sorry, but this is absolute nonsense MarchXX. I know lots of vegans. It's a normal, mainstream thing now. Some of them are a bit preachy and earnest, but they're not actually members of a cult. The ones I know are mostly just doing their vegan thing alone, they are not religious or anti-masturbation, and don't have anyone giving them instructions. Not every niche interest is a cult. Some people just get into things like animal rights, environment, healthy eating and are all-or-nothing about it, others can do it in more moderation. That's all. Nothing sinister or shocking about it.

@PMcGintysGoat

rebeccaofsunny

I have alot of respect for those who live a vegan, off grid lifestyle, having very little impact on others and eating what they can grow, etc.

What frustrates me is vegans telling my sister in law that she is doing some huge good for the planet forgoing meat produced 20 miles away on the side of a mountain, and instead flying vegetables, pulses, soya products from the other side of the world where they're grown to the detriment of local communities, resources and ecology. And ignoring that she flies abroad twice a year, buys a new phone every 9 months, and drives everywhere. If they want her to have a positive impact on the environment they would be telling her to walk, eat local, and holiday abroad less frequently.

Exactly.

But, the marvellous eco-friendly billionnaire commercial plane -owner Richard Branson a couple of years ago stopped providing beef on his commercial planes to do his bit for the planet. What a joke! Because "cows cause global warming" or something .

But, the marvellous eco-friendly billionnaire commercial plane -owner Richard Branson a couple of years ago stopped providing beef on his commercial planes to do his bit for the planet. What a joke! Because "cows cause global warming" or something hmm.

Richard Branson aside, are you really suggesting the choice is either 1) live a 100% perfectly ethical life or 2) do absolutely nothing at all to help the planet? All or nothing?

@MarchXX It’s not ‘a difference of opinion’, your post was really strange. I enjoy a healthy debate, but I don’t want to engage with you anymore as I feel you might have some mental health problems.

@ninesevenfivethree

I wish it was satire, it does sound unbelievably shocking. Unfortunately it is true

I agree with Bella. Sorry, but this is absolute nonsense MarchXX. I know lots of vegans. It's a normal, mainstream thing now. Some of them are a bit preachy and earnest, but they're not actually members of a cult. The ones I know are mostly just doing their vegan thing alone, they are not religious or anti-masturbation, and don't have anyone giving them instructions. Not every niche interest is a cult. Some people just get into things like animal rights, environment, healthy eating and are all-or-nothing about it, others can do it in more moderation. That's all. Nothing sinister or shocking about it.

They have no idea of what is behind the vegan agenda, that's why. It is not common knowledge, for good reason. Interesting article here if you want to learn about the history.

@Idontcareboutthestateofmyhair

Almond milk production in US is killing off the bee population in the masses.. and without bees we're truly fucked. look closely and everything humans do have an effect on the planet. Unless you are living electric/gas/car etc free off your own land organically. Human greed is the problem. Masses of food produced that we don't need in rich countries. Inorganic veggies have chemicals on them which humans consume and therefore enter the oceans and is damaging sea life including plankton which produce more oxygen than the rainforests. Destruction is everywhere.

Most vegans I know drink oat milk because of the environmental impact of almond.

Also, a HUGE percentage of non dairy milk is consumed by non vegans.

I agree with you about human greed though.

Soya isn't the only mass imported food product.
I take it you don't have rice with your chicken korma?

Eating meat, eggs and dairy from local farms are far more environmentally friendly than being a vegan

You're comparing cheese with a beard here.

@Scotland32

A very very complex argument but largely yes, you are right OP. I have no issue with vegans. But vegans who drink almond milk, eat soya and tell me that my local grass fed beef is what’s harming the planet need to do their research.

Name one vegan who has ACTUALLY done this

Part of the problem is the role and influence that huge 'food' corporations have.

Big food companies don't make their profits from selling us unprocessed raw materials with which to cook nourishing meals. They make profits by persuading us we are healthier, behaving more ethically buying their heavily processed foods. They have seized on veganism as the next thing they can make money from, and put their massive shoulder behind marketing without any care for the truth. Same way they did with low fat (which generally means high sugar). These companies wield great influence and are motivated solely by money.

@Pumperthepumper

But, the marvellous eco-friendly billionnaire commercial plane -owner Richard Branson a couple of years ago stopped providing beef on his commercial planes to do his bit for the planet. What a joke! Because "cows cause global warming" or something hmm.

Richard Branson aside, are you really suggesting the choice is either 1) live a 100% perfectly ethical life or 2) do absolutely nothing at all to help the planet? All or nothing?

Well, don't you think he was just virtue-signalling his wokeness about the current anti cow stuff going around to get woke brownie points?

Doesn't it sound bizarre that he wouldn't make a change that would actually make a difference?

I mean, he has multiple gas guzzling planes zipping around the world every single day, dozens of personal vehicles, multiple private homes everywhere. Yet, stopping people on his planes having the choice of beef for lunch is "saving the planet".

Well, don't you think he was just virtue-signalling his wokeness about the current anti cow stuff going around to get woke brownie points?

Doesn't it sound bizarre that he wouldn't make a change that would actually make a difference?

I mean, he has multiple gas guzzling planes zipping around the world every single day, dozens of personal vehicles, multiple private homes everywhere. Yet, stopping people on his planes having the choice of beef for lunch is "saving the planet".

I did say aside from Richard Branson but still, the question remains: all or nothing?

@PMcGintysGoat

Part of the problem is the role and influence that huge 'food' corporations have.

Big food companies don't make their profits from selling us unprocessed raw materials with which to cook nourishing meals. They make profits by persuading us we are healthier, behaving more ethically buying their heavily processed foods. They have seized on veganism as the next thing they can make money from, and put their massive shoulder behind marketing without any care for the truth. Same way they did with low fat (which generally means high sugar). These companies wield great influence and are motivated solely by money.

You haven’t said what your sister in law said when you told her about the driving and stuff.

@PMcGintysGoat

Part of the problem is the role and influence that huge 'food' corporations have.

Big food companies don't make their profits from selling us unprocessed raw materials with which to cook nourishing meals. They make profits by persuading us we are healthier, behaving more ethically buying their heavily processed foods. They have seized on veganism as the next thing they can make money from, and put their massive shoulder behind marketing without any care for the truth. Same way they did with low fat (which generally means high sugar). These companies wield great influence and are motivated solely by money.

And there is nothing wrong with them wanting to make money, but, we must educate ourselves and stand up and say "no". The "low fat" diet trend that pretty much destroyed my health over forty years before I knocked it on the head a few years ago, has started to lose popularity so what would take its place?

"Plant based", that's what. Have you noticed the increasing number of packaged foods now labeled "plant based" or "vegan", even stuff that has never seen an atom of animal products . Hilarious. They're all getting in on the racket.

are you really suggesting the choice is either 1) live a 100% perfectly ethical life or 2) do absolutely nothing at all to help the planet? All or nothing?

You're missing the point. The thing you believe is ethical is only ethical if you're eating what you produce in your allotment. If you're eating food produced on the other side of the world, with no interest in how that meat-alternative is produced and the impact it has, then the so-called ethical alternative isn't. And yet you think 'it's fine to fly to Florid because, since I don't eat meat I'm doing everything I can.'

Be honest. Not eating meat might satisfy an argument about not eating animals - fine. But if you want to do something positive for the planet you need to drive and fly less, not kid yourself that almonds are better for the environment than lamb from a nearby farm.