To say that being a vegan is no better for the environment than being a meat eater?

[OnlyInYourDreams]

Unless you eat only home grown, locally sourced products?

Obviously some people are vegan because they don’t like the idea of using any kind of animal products. But all too often people say that they’re vegan because “it’s better for the environment when this is categorically not the case.

Lots of fruit/veg have to be imported which is actually worse for the environment because it involves pumping man-made substances into the environment.

Products like almond milk are terrible for the environment because e.g. it takes 1600l of water to produce 1l of almond milk. Coca-Cola is practically a green product in comparison…

If people want to be vegan, why not just say you want to be vegan. Coming up with reasons such as “it’s better for the environment” which are just rubbish and laughable is only going to increase the amount of people who don’t take vegans seriously.

Its all relative.
I eat meat (only at maximum twice per week), have flown twice (return flights) in my 20 years of being an adult, walk everywhere I can, don't have a car, etc etc.
I suspect my lifestyle is better for the environment than many vegetarians or vegans.

My friends are very much are omnis who argue that meat is necessary for survival and better for the environment if it’s local from their butcher and they are doing the right thing for the environment and it’s kinder as it local etc, , but I notice that doesn’t stop them getting sandwich meats from the supermarket and eating meat when they eat out or get takeaway 3 or 4 times a week pre covid.

Going to a local butcher occasionally seems to be the meat lovers get out of jail / guilt free card.

This is interesting listening.... and some food for thought!

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000bl1k

@AMillionMilesAway

Its all relative. I eat meat (only at maximum twice per week), have flown twice (return flights) in my 20 years of being an adult, walk everywhere I can, don't have a car, etc etc. I suspect my lifestyle is better for the environment than many vegetarians or vegans.

But that’s brilliant! You’re doing exactly the right thing, you’re doing what you think it’s best according to your own environmental concerns! You don’t have to be snide at veganisn as a result, they’re also just doing their best.

You will have no option but to be plant based or eat lab grown meat , real meat will not be available, simple as that.

lol

Of course it will be, drugs are fairly easy to come by aren't they.

There's already a black market in the UK for meat, it will just increase if it's consumption is somehow outlawed.

@Pumperthepumper

Don't act daft, everyone knows the prices are increased enormously.

I honestly don’t know what you mean. That’s the same for everyone, regardless of whether they live in the country or not. We’ve also got a sugar tax - what does any of that have to do with environmental concerns? Or loss of liberty?

The price of cigarettes has increased 500% just in my adult life, and I imagine this is what the vegans want to do to meat. Might be a while though, they are outnumbered 99 to 1.

In October 2018, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) reported that to keep the rise in global temperatures below 1.5C this century, emissions of carbon dioxide would have to be cut by 45% by 2030. Coming under greater focus were sources of CO₂ and Greenhouse Gas Emissions linked to our food; cows and sheep. For some the science was enough to justify ever greater calls to reduce meat and dairy consumption and rein in the global livestock population. To others, the focus on meat has become too simplistic and driven by ideology. So, who's right and what should the future of meat look (and taste) like?

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000bl1k

I really like the idea of lab grown meat

The price of cigarettes has increased 500% just in my adult life, and I imagine this is what the vegans want to do to meat. Might be a while though, they are outnumbered 99 to 1.

I think this is part of your paranoia @vimtosogood - if you’re worried that someone, somewhere, at some point might stop you eating meat why not start rearing your own? You never said if you believed in climate change?

@Pumperthepumper

The price of cigarettes has increased 500% just in my adult life, and I imagine this is what the vegans want to do to meat. Might be a while though, they are outnumbered 99 to 1.

I think this is part of your paranoia @vimtosogood - if you’re worried that someone, somewhere, at some point might stop you eating meat why not start rearing your own? You never said if you believed in climate change?

Lovely idea if only I had the space.

Climate change is an invisible problem we all have degrade our lives to fix. Skepticism is only logical. If all the zealots jumped off a cliff instead carrying on like normal, in fact emitting much more than the average person, I might take them more seriously.

Climate change is an invisible problem we all have degrade our lives to fix. Skepticism is only logical. If all the zealots jumped off a cliff instead carrying on like normal, in fact emitting much more than the average person, I might take them more seriously.

You don’t have to though, you can ignore that weird chip on your shoulder about veganism all you like. It’s an absolute fact that the earth is rapidly degrading and we all, all of us, even you, need to do what we can to halt it.

@Pumperthepumper

Climate change is an invisible problem we all have degrade our lives to fix. Skepticism is only logical. If all the zealots jumped off a cliff instead carrying on like normal, in fact emitting much more than the average person, I might take them more seriously.

You don’t have to though, you can ignore that weird chip on your shoulder about veganism all you like. It’s an absolute fact that the earth is rapidly degrading and we all, all of us, even you, need to do what we can to halt it.

Back to poor vegans and the odd hurtful comments they get. Whilst they vandalise farms and butchers and harass the owners.

@nanbread, I was deliberately talking about the sort of meat - beef and lamb - which tends to get monstered the most. I want even talking about organic red meat production, just what normal farmers do.

And cows' farts? Yep, methane is a potent GHG, but it cycles through the atmosphere in 12 years or so. And meanwhile, well-managed grazing should be sequestering carbon.

@MildredPuppy

I really like the idea of lab grown meat

It's called the current Cabinet.

Climate change is not an invisible problem. It’s affecting some of the poorest communities in the world, and destroying/changing some of our most important ecosystems. Hell, the pandemic can be directly linked to climate change and deforestation, which is why many scientists think if we don’t do SOMETHING we’ll see another pandemic within the next five years.

Back to poor vegans and the odd hurtful comments they get.Whilst they vandalise farms and butchers and harass the owners.

It’s got absolutely nothing to do with vegans, I don’t know how you could have read that from that post. It’s what you can do to stop the planet decaying at a rate we’ve never seen before. That’s it.

@Pumperthepumper

Back to poor vegans and the odd hurtful comments they get.Whilst they vandalise farms and butchers and harass the owners.

It’s got absolutely nothing to do with vegans, I don’t know how you could have read that from that post. It’s what you can do to stop the planet decaying at a rate we’ve never seen before. That’s it.

I think that would be the "weird chip" comment. I don't have children, and don't plan to. Do you? If so I'm greener than you, which I guess is what you wanted, an eco-off.

@DaisyFeather
Hell, the pandemic can be directly linked to climate change and deforestation

How so? Covid wasn’t caused by climate change and deforestation. Covid didn’t spread because of climate change and deforestation.

[quote Ylvamoon]In October 2018, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) reported that to keep the rise in global temperatures below 1.5C this century, emissions of carbon dioxide would have to be cut by 45% by 2030. Coming under greater focus were sources of CO₂ and Greenhouse Gas Emissions linked to our food; cows and sheep. For some the science was enough to justify ever greater calls to reduce meat and dairy consumption and rein in the global livestock population. To others, the focus on meat has become too simplistic and driven by ideology. So, who's right and what should the future of meat look (and taste) like?

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000bl1k[/quote]
See? It’s what I said. The vegan way is to “rein in the global livestock population”. Which means kill the animals, kill most of them. Maybe leave a few for zoos. How is that even ethical? We all know how the worlds military “retired” their horse troops. With machine guns and pyres of millions of dead horses.

I think that would be the "weird chip" comment.
I don't have children, and don't plan to. Do you? If so I'm greener than you, which I guess is what you wanted, an eco-off.

The total opposite, it’s not a competition. That’s why it’s so weird you need to have a go at the vegans, and the cigarette costs, and the lights on not making a difference. It’s why threads like this, who want to portray vegans as hypocrites because of ‘the almonds’ are so stupid.

Again: we don’t need a tiny percentage of the population living totally perfectly ethical lives. We need everyone doing their bit.

@PlanDeRaccordement the simple answer is because deforestation has reduced the borders between people and nature that should exist, making us more vulnerable to coming into contact with species carrying disease that we shouldn’t. It’s a bit more nuanced than that, but there’s a lot of research out there that explains it in more scientific depth.

[quote DaisyFeather]@PlanDeRaccordement the simple answer is because deforestation has reduced the borders between people and nature that should exist, making us more vulnerable to coming into contact with species carrying disease that we shouldn’t. It’s a bit more nuanced than that, but there’s a lot of research out there that explains it in more scientific depth.[/quote]
Honestly, not the case with Covid. It’s descended from a bat virus, likely picked up by a scientific researcher crawling around in bat caves. It’s not from loggers, or bush burning.

@Pumperthepumper

*I think that would be the "weird chip" comment. I don't have children, and don't plan to. Do you? If so I'm greener than you, which I guess is what you wanted, an eco-off.*

The total opposite, it’s not a competition. That’s why it’s so weird you need to have a go at the vegans, and the cigarette costs, and the lights on not making a difference. It’s why threads like this, who want to portray vegans as hypocrites because of ‘the almonds’ are so stupid.

Again: we don’t need a tiny percentage of the population living totally perfectly ethical lives. We need everyone doing their bit.

If it's not a competition could you please tell the vegans to stop vandalising butchers shops and harassing normal people? Could you also tell Greta etc to STFU because I drove a few miles less last weekend because the weather was shite and I didn't feel like going out and sitting in it. I've done my bit, after all.

Vegans that do that are animal welfare vegans. It’s a whole different conversation than the one the op started.

The other issue rarely discussed by vegans is that the new types of grains etc they gravitate to in order to get their needs met then get priced out of the market for locals. Like quinoa, once a staple, now out of reach of most of the people who live where it is grown.