To say that being a vegan is no better for the environment than being a meat eater?

[OnlyInYourDreams]

Unless you eat only home grown, locally sourced products?

Obviously some people are vegan because they don’t like the idea of using any kind of animal products. But all too often people say that they’re vegan because “it’s better for the environment when this is categorically not the case.

Lots of fruit/veg have to be imported which is actually worse for the environment because it involves pumping man-made substances into the environment.

Products like almond milk are terrible for the environment because e.g. it takes 1600l of water to produce 1l of almond milk. Coca-Cola is practically a green product in comparison…

If people want to be vegan, why not just say you want to be vegan. Coming up with reasons such as “it’s better for the environment” which are just rubbish and laughable is only going to increase the amount of people who don’t take vegans seriously.

I’m writing a book on this at the moment.

Vegans on average have a carbon footprint that is 73% lower than a meat eater.

The history of veganism, however, is about not using animals as commodities and animal welfare issues. Clearly that and environmental action don’t always align. But veganism has grown beyond that ideal.

And if you’re an environmental vegan, ultimately you need to follow the same principles of eating seasonally and locally to be as low carbon as possible.

But there are ways that meat consumption can be beneficial for the environment such as in low carbon, ‘slow grown’ livestock farming eg Knepp Estate who have successfully rewilded their farm land which is incredibly positive for the environment. Armed with knowledge like this is far better for vegans to use in conversation as it shows acceptance that veganism isn’t for everyone and comes of less evangelical.

Or when it comes to vegan fabric alternatives, it’s best to look at non-plastic versions, or at least recycled plastic versions.

Everything we do has an impact. Veganism does lower that impact but if you’re looking to make sure your veganism is environmental and intersectional, there’s a lot more work to do than just cutting out meat and dairy.

The best line I’ve had in interviews so far is that you have to be able to sleep at night; one vegan individual may have an entirely different priority to you, but as long as you’re doing your best, you’re doing ok.

Yes, it's very easy in my area. I hate wasting things in general TBH and that includes food. Not so much for any spurious environmental reasons, but because I pay for it.

But by your own argument, you shouldn’t bother. Supermarkets waste 896,000 tonnes of plastic waste every year so you washing out your yoghurt pots makes absolutely no difference. Why don’t you just not pay for it and chuck it in the general waste? Why do you hate waste, if not for environmental reasons?

[quote Indoctro]@vimtosogood

Yes you can eat that way now, but unfortunately our future is bleak, mass migration due to rising sea levels is going to plunge this planet into a very dark place in the next 30 years, you will be fighting for survival, we honestly are at a tipping point, it's not to late to change things if we all act now

I'm not telling you to become a vegan , I'm not a vegan but the whole globe needs to reduce there meat intake , that is a fact.

20% reduction will have huge positive effects , so yeah do eat your British raise meat but please consider consuming 20% less of it .

I'm not sure how old you are but the young children of today face a very hard life and if it doesn't directly affect you it certainly will any grandchild or children .

[/quote]
Maybe the parents of the children-of-today should have used contraception if the population is growing too fast...

@vimtosogood sorry, I read that wrong - you hate waste because you’ve paid for the stuff you’re wasting, not recycling. So why recycle, and why not just buy less?

And the intersectional point is an acknowledgement that not very society can stop consuming meat. Many indigenous communities rely on it and often their farming/fishing methods etc are beneficial to the environment because they have a different respect for land directly providing for them than corporations destroying forests in Amazon countries (80% of which is for cattle ranching, which in turn makes up 62% of all global food based emissions and has contributed massively to extinctions and critically endangered increasing)

@Pumperthepumper

Yes, it's very easy in my area. I hate wasting things in general TBH and that includes food. Not so much for any spurious environmental reasons, but because I pay for it.

But by your own argument, you shouldn’t bother. Supermarkets waste 896,000 tonnes of plastic waste every year so you washing out your yoghurt pots makes absolutely no difference. Why don’t you just not pay for it and chuck it in the general waste? Why do you hate waste, if not for environmental reasons?

My council tax is fixed no matter how I fill my bins. I should get a big child-free discount but don't but hey ho. I have two bins, one for general, one for all the recycling. They are taken on alternating weeks. If I put all the recyclables in the general it would overflow as I'd be reducing my collection to fortnightly. I just said why I don't like wasting things, because I'm only costing myself more. Leaving all my lights on when I go out won't make any difference to emissions but it will to my power bill.

My council tax is fixed no matter how I fill my bins. I should get a big child-free discount but don't but hey ho. I have two bins, one for general, one for all the recycling. They are taken on alternating weeks. If I put all the recyclables in the general it would overflow as I'd be reducing my collection to fortnightly.I just said why I don't like wasting things, because I'm only costing myself more. Leaving all my lights on when I go out won't make any difference to emissions but it will to my power bill.

And climate change? What’s your opinion on that?

There are some plots of mitigation potential (i.e. how much difference it could make to climate change) here if you're interested - quite a range of values and also quite a range of diets to choose from:
IPCC report

Maybe the parents of the children-of-today should have used contraception if the population is growing too fast...

Leaving all my lights on when I go out won't make any difference to emissions but it will to my power bill.

Someone didn’t listen in science

My council tax is fixed no matter how I fill my bins. I should get a big child-free discount but don't but hey ho. I have two bins, one for general, one for all the recycling. They are taken on alternating weeks. If I put all the recyclables in the general it would overflow as I'd be reducing my collection to fortnightly.I just said why I don't like wasting things, because I'm only costing myself more. Leaving all my lights on when I go out won't make any difference to emissions but it will to my power bill.

And why don’t you just buy less?

[quote Pumperthepumper]@vimtosogood sorry, I read that wrong - you hate waste because you’ve paid for the stuff you’re wasting, not recycling. So why recycle, and why not just buy less?[/quote]
I'm not sure what the benchmark is for buying less
is but generally I do not buy lot, and things I do buy are all well used.
Are you carbon auditing me or something?

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

Let's be real about what accounts for the vast majority of animal consumption... It's cheap supermarket meat, intensive farming, fast food. If you eat lamb or beef from UK farms, virtually all of it will have eaten a diet consisting almost entirely of grass. Ewes get supplemental feeding around lambing, and you sometimes see sheep turned out on stubble turnips, which give the ground a break from cereals, allowing the pest load to be reduced without the use of chemical sprays (so you can argue that the crop is grown for meat production, but equally, it benefits the following year's cereals, which grow in cleaner ground that has had a good dose of natural fertiliser from the sheep shit). And cattle will sometimes eat silage that includes crops other than grass - but these are often things like vetches, which naturally increase nitrogen in the soil (that, is, they fertilise it) and their roots will be ploughed in as a green manure. Any non-grass or non-silage ration that goes down British beef is mostly things like spent brewers' grains, crop residues, and grains that didn't make the human food grade.

If your supermarket meat is British lamb or beef, it is very, very unlikely to have been factory farmed (there are iirc a couple of large indoor beef units in the UK, but the vast majority of British beef is extensively reared; sheep are only indoors for lambing and not even always then).

I actually agree with you that organic British beef in terms of nutrients, welfare and land impact seems to be one of the better meat choices. But that's considering this purely through a British lens when we account for a tiny fraction of the wider population. And ignoring the intensive pig and chicken farming. And the non UK meat sold in some supermarkets.

Oh and cows' farts.

I think the point is that it’s very complex and becoming vegan doesn’t necessarily solve much if your footprint is still not sustainable. I do really disagree with the meat-bashing of recent years though.

@SnackSizeRaisin

My 100 Lleyn ewes and 180 lambs must be a figment of my imagination.

Fair enough you are a farmer, but one who clearly has no idea how other farmers operate. It doesn't change the fact that creep feed (soya based) is commonly fed to lambs, ewes are often given hard food too, and preserved grass (produced using a tractor) is commonly fed to ewes and lambs, on the vast majority of UK sheep farms even if not on yours.

I don't give creep feed to lambs. They're drinking their mothers' milk and eating grass at the moment. It takes a couple of days to make hayledge and I don't use artificial fertilizer. I make sure my fields are sown with plenty of clover. Different farmers have different systems. I know that because I speak to them personally and on SM. I can see what people do because I can see what they do in their fields. Anyway I love my life producing meat for others to eat in a sustainable way.

@SimonJT

Leaving all my lights on when I go out won't make any difference to emissions but it will to my power bill.

Someone didn’t listen in science

The difference would be so infinitesimally small a gnats cock would dwarf it. The UK "contributes" 1% of global emissions. If the entire country left their lights on it would make no difference. If the entire country vanished it would make no difference. Looks like somebody didn't pay attention in maths class.

No @vimtosogood - I’m interested in your views on climate change, and environmentalism generally. So you don’t want to stop eating meat and dairy because of influencers, and you recycle because you may as well, but there’s also a bit of an edge to your posts about denying the issues others (vegans and environmentalist) care about, why is that?

Lol. I'd love to see your basis for that argument?

"Organic" as a brand is a very different thing to organically grown produce. Again, it's somewhat reductive, but, the fewer chemicals on produce, the better it is for the environment. Specifically in relation to sprayed neonicotinoids and slug pellets which cause cumulative effects with wide reaching environmental impacts.

Interesting thread. I live in southern France. Our local farmer produces prize winning Charolais meat. He sends his cattle on a long journey to be slaughtered in Italy and the meat is sent back to him to fill his farm shop. Irish cattle are driven all across Europe. How could this be sustainable?
I hve a teen dd who has been the catalyst is us becoming a meatless household. The youth are away ahead of us.

@Pumperthepumper

No *@vimtosogood* - I’m interested in your views on climate change, and environmentalism generally. So you don’t want to stop eating meat and dairy because of influencers, and you recycle because you may as well, but there’s also a bit of an edge to your posts about denying the issues others (vegans and environmentalist) care about, why is that?

Because it'll be the countryside, where I live, which will be forced to change for the worse. We're already losing a lot of liberty in this country. Smoking virtually gone, alcohol will be next. Ironically both are vegan.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but it takes much more crop to create meat that it does plant based meals.
It’s a lot easier to grow oats and wheat than to grow almonds and fruit etc. Bees aren’t required to die in their millions to pollinate wheat for one thing.

Because it'll be the countryside, where I live, which will be forced to change for the worse.We're already losing a lot of liberty in this country.Smoking virtually gone, alcohol will be next. Ironically both are vegan.

What? What loss of liberty? Who’s stopping you smoking or drinking?

@Pumperthepumper

Because it'll be the countryside, where I live, which will be forced to change for the worse.We're already losing a lot of liberty in this country.Smoking virtually gone, alcohol will be next. Ironically both are vegan.

What? What loss of liberty? Who’s stopping you smoking or drinking?

Don't act daft, everyone knows the prices are increased enormously.

Don't act daft, everyone knows the prices are increased enormously.

I honestly don’t know what you mean. That’s the same for everyone, regardless of whether they live in the country or not. We’ve also got a sugar tax - what does any of that have to do with environmental concerns? Or loss of liberty?