To say that being a vegan is no better for the environment than being a meat eater?

[OnlyInYourDreams]

Unless you eat only home grown, locally sourced products?

Obviously some people are vegan because they don’t like the idea of using any kind of animal products. But all too often people say that they’re vegan because “it’s better for the environment when this is categorically not the case.

Lots of fruit/veg have to be imported which is actually worse for the environment because it involves pumping man-made substances into the environment.

Products like almond milk are terrible for the environment because e.g. it takes 1600l of water to produce 1l of almond milk. Coca-Cola is practically a green product in comparison…

If people want to be vegan, why not just say you want to be vegan. Coming up with reasons such as “it’s better for the environment” which are just rubbish and laughable is only going to increase the amount of people who don’t take vegans seriously.

If it's not a competition could you please tell the vegans to stop vandalising butchers shops and harassing normal people? Could you also tell Greta etc to STFU because I drove a few miles less last weekend because the weather was shite and I didn't feel like going out and sitting in it. I've done my bit, after all.

I don’t really know what else there is to say. Like it or not, there will have to be massive changes in lifestyles if we want to have something as basic as ‘a planet to live on’. You having a pop at an autistic teenager doesn’t change that.

Another vegan bashing thread that goes around and around with the same tired old arguments.

@Babygotblueyes

The other issue rarely discussed by vegans is that the new types of grains etc they gravitate to in order to get their needs met then get priced out of the market for locals. Like quinoa, once a staple, now out of reach of most of the people who live where it is grown.

That’s not true, everyone knows about quinoa. That’s not a gotcha - you can buy raspberries all year round in the average British supermarket that have been flown in from all over the world. There’s literally thousands of ethical issues around just about everything we eat, and I say that as someone who grows a huge amount of fruit and veg every year.

@cushioncovers

Another vegan bashing thread that goes around and around with the same tired old arguments.

It’s not “vegan bashing” to state that being vegan is “no better for the environment than being a meat eater” and to point out the holes in their sketchy “science”.

@Pumperthepumper

If it's not a competition could you please tell the vegans to stop vandalising butchers shops and harassing normal people? Could you also tell Greta etc to STFU because I drove a few miles less last weekend because the weather was shite and I didn't feel like going out and sitting in it. I've done my bit, after all.

I don’t really know what else there is to say. Like it or not, there will have to be massive changes in lifestyles if we want to have something as basic as ‘a planet to live on’. You having a pop at an autistic teenager doesn’t change that.

You seem to alternate from "everyone doing their bit" to "massive changes". Which is it?

Threads like this are a clear demonstration of why agriculture needs to be taught in schools. Talking about emissions isn’t telling the whole story. One example is droughts caused by avacado production for example where whole towns have to have water delivered by tanker because farmers have blocked off their supplies for avacados.

Cows and sheep don’t really eat grain in the U.K. and graze land unsuitable for food production. Biodiversity in the sward is increased by grazing. Grazing is a wonderful way to increase nutrients in the soil as part of a crop rotation, it reduces the need for pesticides significantly. Slurry is used as a main organic fertiliser.

It’s a complex matter that won’t be helped by people refusing to educate themselves.

Why do you even care? Why are you trying (badly) to prove than you are better than vegans?
There is no hierarchy where we rank each other’s eco decisions.
Do what you want to do without being a dick about it.

-a vegan who doesn’t think they are better than you

You seem to alternate from "everyone doing their bit" to "massive changes". Which is it?

It’s both. You do your bit. Let Greta do her bit. That adds up to a massive change - but that change doesn’t come if people deny climate change.

Look into the energy used to rear cows. Then look at that for an avocado (a notoriously co2 inefficient veg due to flying it in etc).

You're just wrong.

@CorianderBee

Look into the energy used to rear cows. Then look at that for an avocado (a notoriously co2 inefficient veg due to flying it in etc).

You're just wrong.

Look at how nutritious beef is and how void avocado is.

@Pumperthepumper

You seem to alternate from "everyone doing their bit" to "massive changes". Which is it?

It’s both. You do your bit. Let Greta do her bit. That adds up to a massive change - but that change doesn’t come if people deny climate change.

But I've already done my bit, and more than you it would seem. Can't I be left alone?

But I've already done my bit, and more than you it would seem. Can't I be left alone?

You have no idea what I ‘do’. Be left alone how?

Look at how nutritious beef is and how void avocado is.

Avocado isn’t ‘void’ of nutrients.

@OnlyInYourDreams

So vegans are in favour of species becoming extinct then?

Ducks/chickens/cows/sheep of varying breeds? Without eating them or using them for other bi-products there is literally no reason for them to exist.

They know not everyone will turn vegan. So it's more about persuading the population to slowly reduce, reduce, reduce the demand thus reducing breeding, bringing populations down until they're at a low sustainable level like they used to be when some people are meat once a week.

Yes they want lots of vegans but most vegans know lots of people will always eat meat.

It's about stopping everyone eating meat three times a bloody day every day.

@21Flora
Great post. Sheep, cows, pigs, etc are part of the ecosystem. And “reining in their global population” will damage the ecosystem irrevocably.

Many vegans think they calculate away the land, water and food these animals use to support their lives by simply not eating a few of them. And then portraying a world where we replace fields of sheep with fields of soy. They can’t. These animals are part of balance we have with nature. And as you say, it’s not that simple. Grazing renews the nutrients in land, monocrops leave land sterile and dead. Much wildlife depend on grazing lands and would die if we attempted to convert it to crops of one sort or another.
There’s a reason why most vegans are urban dwellers. They have no idea how land and ecosystems actually work.

@Pumperthepumper

But I've already done my bit, and more than you it would seem. Can't I be left alone?

You have no idea what I ‘do’. Be left alone how?

As I already said, if you have kids I've out greened you by miles. I'd like vegans to never again vandalise farms or butchers shops. Do they really think angering people who out number them 99/1 is going to end well? It's as much for their sake really.

@Pumperthepumper

Look at how nutritious beef is and how void avocado is.

Avocado isn’t ‘void’ of nutrients.

And also, it’s not one over the other. Vegans aren’t the only people eating avocados - beef fajitas with guacamole, for example.

@21Flora

Threads like this are a clear demonstration of why agriculture needs to be taught in schools. Talking about emissions isn’t telling the whole story. One example is droughts caused by avacado production for example where whole towns have to have water delivered by tanker because farmers have blocked off their supplies for avacados.

Cows and sheep don’t really eat grain in the U.K. and graze land unsuitable for food production. Biodiversity in the sward is increased by grazing. Grazing is a wonderful way to increase nutrients in the soil as part of a crop rotation, it reduces the need for pesticides significantly. Slurry is used as a main organic fertiliser.

It’s a complex matter that won’t be helped by people refusing to educate themselves.

This.

and @Pumperthepumper - your post makes no sense. If everyone knows about quinoa how is what I said not true? If you are not getting dietary requirements from animal based foods, then you have to find alternatives. And that has massive implications. And is not better for the environment.

As I already said, if you have kids I've out greened you by miles. I'd like vegans to never again vandalise farms or butchers shops. Do they really think angering people who out number them 99/1 is going to end well? It's as much for their sake really.

Oh Jesus, AGAIN, it’s not a competition. You can do whatever you like, as can vegans. That’s it! That’s the bottom line! I’d argue we all have to think of our planet, you don’t agree, that’s it!

bringing populations down until they're at a low sustainable level like they used to be when some people are meat once a week.

That’s not a good goal. Even the poverty stricken mining and cotton workers of England at the start of the 20th century, ate meat more than once a week. And the diseases and deaths due to malnutrition are well documented from their diets consisting mostly of carbohydrates (bread or vegetables like the potato) and margarine. Going to “How it used to be” is not something desirable or healthy.

and @Pumperthepumper - your post makes no sense. If everyone knows about quinoa how is what I said not true? If you are not getting dietary requirements from animal based foods, then you have to find alternatives. And that has massive implications. And is not better for the environment.

You said it’s rarely discussed, and that’s not true. And if you’re getting dietary requirements from animals, you’re also getting them from fruit and veg, nobody eats a 100% meat diet. So it’s a moot point - there’s absolutely loads of problems around all our food, it’s what we can do to reduce things like air miles, carbon and water use. Nobody can eat totally ethically.

Vegans aren’t the only people eating avocado

Stupid argument. Yes omnivores eat plant based foods as well as animal based foods. But vegans obviously eat more plant based foods than an omnivore does. So going vegan increases the demand for more and more plant based foods. And the island of Britain doesn’t have any extra arable land to plant more crops. It already imports a high %.of fresh vegetables and fruit but exports meat and fish. So every increase in demand for plant based foods automatically comes with a carbon footprint to ship or fly it to the island.

@Pumperthepumper

As I already said, if you have kids I've out greened you by miles. I'd like vegans to never again vandalise farms or butchers shops. Do they really think angering people who out number them 99/1 is going to end well? It's as much for their sake really.

Oh Jesus, AGAIN, it’s not a competition. You can do whatever you like, as can vegans. That’s it! That’s the bottom line! I’d argue we all have to think of our planet, you don’t agree, that’s it!

OK it's not a competition you've convinced me. Now go and tell the vegans to stop their crimes, I'm sure they'll listen.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Vegans aren’t the only people eating avocado

Stupid argument. Yes omnivores eat plant based foods as well as animal based foods. But vegans obviously eat more plant based foods than an omnivore does. So going vegan increases the demand for more and more plant based foods. And the island of Britain doesn’t have any extra arable land to plant more crops. It already imports a high %.of fresh vegetables and fruit but exports meat and fish. So every increase in demand for plant based foods automatically comes with a carbon footprint to ship or fly it to the island.

It’s hardly a stupid argument when people are using avocado and almond farming as a way of saying vegans are wasting their time. It’s perfectly logical to point out you can eat meat five times a day and eat avocados six times a week and enjoy an almond milk latte every day.

@PlanDeRaccordement if people really wanted to make a difference to the environment as a whole, not just carbon emissions, but the environment they’d eat locally sourced, organic, seasonal produce.