to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography?

[Elizabetth]

Particularly as porn has become so much more mainstream in the past few years, I'd have thought that people would be concerned about premature sexualisation of children. Also I'm surprised that so many women are fine with it given that the humiliation and degradation of women is the central theme of pornography. You only have to look at the titles to realise that.

Elizabetth, I hear everything you're saying about porn but imo you spoil everything you say by the 'man-bashing' in your posts. You consistently refer to men as perverts for watching porn and you say men want to watch women being degraded. I'd be really interested to know your opinions on:

1. What you think of a woman, such as myself, who likes watching porn...do you think I'm a pervert? have I been corrupted by a man?

1. what do you think of porn made by women?

Whatever ClaphamLauren, you were using your army of feminist friends to bolster your arguments - what was it you said "the vast majority of feminists I know (and I know quite a few from my Sociology studies!)". You brought numbers into it then you complain when I do the same back. I do know a lot of feminists and I know a lot of anti-porn feminists. So I guess we're equal on that so there isn't much point in mentioning them is there?

TMMJ, I'm sure you're right. It's a vicious circle - there's so much porn people think it's OK, and because people think it's OK there's more and more porn.

It's worth mentioning that the anti-porn view is definitely a minority one. It gets shouted down almost everywhere.

I think, maybe, people's attitudes to sex in general might have something to do with their attitudes to porn.

If a woman willingly participates in a sexual act that is filmed for other people's pleasure, why is that then seen as degrading to her but not to the man taking part?

"dp reckons most of the people who have a blanket dislike for all things sexual/pornographic are religious"

Um, so he lumps "all things sexual" with pornography??

"You consistently refer to men as perverts for watching porn"

I do? Could you find some quotes of mine to back that up?

If you can't I can't really answer your questions because I'm not going to engage with someone who misrepresents me.

Just out of interest

Can people please explain what the thoughts are on gay porn?

Smallwhitecat, yes EXACTLY.

I couldn't believe it was a Tory leader saying it, but hell the fact that one in two young men think rape is OK in certain circumstances is frightening and it's hard not to notice that there is one form of media that almost all young men watch which shows women who enjoy being abused and degraded and humiliated.

Nobody wants to make the connection, but it's definitely there.

Elizabeth - "Or are we going to put our toddlers in front of "Anal Teen Sluts 43" (yes that's the kind of thing those lovely guys who definitely aren't pervs are watching) because it won't do them any harm because they won't remember it? " You said this on the thread that started it.

TMMJ - I agree with that actually, it was a bad one to use. How about Lesbian porn then? Does this come in the same category?

correlation doesn't prove causation though Elizabetth

Hmmm, this is not helping with me studying for my exam....

"Of course you'd still love her. The point is you don't want it for her and it's very likely because she has loving and supportive parents that there is almost no chance that she'd ever end up in that situation."

I wouldn't want DD to become a drug addict either, but there are many drug addicts who do come from loving homes with supportive parents, sometimes our kids dont go down the paths we imagined for them. If DD did grow up to be a porn star, sat me down and told me she really enjoyed it, that she felt it were empowering and she enjoyed what she did, what choice would I have (if the company was legit and she was over the age of consent) to accept it?

"Please don't assume that most of them aren't. Your view of the pornography industry is sadly skewed."

I admit I have not researched the pornography industry. Where do you get all your information on? Is it personal research? Or have you done something official on this, like research papers, and interviewing women?

"No I don't own diamonds and I wouldn't for that very reason. Did you think you might catch me out there? Do you own diamonds?"

No, I didn't want to "catch you out" this is not a game, I was trying to drawn an example.

"This is what always happens in these kind of situations when women speak about their experiences, they are dismissed and undermined. Telling me I have an issue FFS. There is no child in the world who wouldn't be damaged by what I experienced (and BTW I didn't see that much porn, it was maybe once a year that my brother got hold of it) but lots and lots of children are having the same experience now and it is doing them no good at all."

MOST parents who do keep porn in the house ensure it is out of childrens way, and install monitoring on their computers; so I dont know if lots and lots of children are having the same experience as you. But the OP was not about whether it is okay to keep it in the house, just whether it is acceptable. And I apologise for saying you have "issues".

"As for them being perverts, well actually the first word I'd be using is "misogynists". Men who regard women as equal human beings deserving of respect don't want to see them splayed and used in porn."

You are white washing here. My husband regards me as his equal and is the most considerate bloke I know, thinks woman should be treated with respect. He has watched porn - does that mean that he is lying to me and thinks I am below him?

He enjoys playing Rainbow Six - does that make him a mass murderer too?

older-ish pro-porn feminists - has anyone read Susanna Breslin? - are interesting.

But in my experience they have only ever been exposed to the realities of the fetish-y end of the porn industry - which has always prided itself/played with the idea of a shifting power balance.

As opposed to the rigid power relationships that - with some notable but not generalization-crushing exceptions - mainstream porn presupposes.

Which enables them - the ppf's - to maintain a polyanna-ish attitude in the face of dead-eyed seventeen-year-olds.

OK a bit of hyperbole there LS. Like I said already, misogynist is more the word I would attach to a man who watches porn.

Well, I stand corrected you called them idiots in this post:

By Elizabetth on Wed 14-Nov-07 20:29:58
They aren't my "hang-ups" as you so disgustingly put it VictorianSqualor, they are my experiences.

If idiots want to keep pornography in the house where their children will find it (and they will find it) they need reminding that pornography is harmful to children. Premature sexualisation is damaging.

I also thought you were calling them perverts, albeit using sarcasm, in this post:

By Elizabetth on Wed 14-Nov-07 20:34:38
"Secondly, there is a difference in memories of what happens at two and four - ie not many people have memories of being two, so the child in my very simple view probably will not remember."

I've got memories from when I was two. Also just because someone doesn't remember something doesn't mean it didn't have an effect.

Or are we going to put our toddlers in front of "Anal Teen Sluts 43" (yes that's the kind of thing those lovely guys who definitely aren't pervs are watching) because it won't do them any harm because they won't remember it?

themildmanneredjanitor

"i think gay porn is dodgy too but gay porn isn't splashed across every aspect of everyday life."

Porn isn't splashed across every aspect of my everyday life - please tell me some examples so I know where you are coming from please.

"He has watched porn - does that mean that he is lying to me and thinks I am below him?"

I'd say he thinks the women in porn are below him, objects whose bodies are there to be used for his sexual enjoyment without reference to their humanity or how they might really feel about what is being done to them.

"He enjoys playing Rainbow Six - does that make him a mass murderer too?"

Unless real people actually die in Rainbow Six (I'm assuming it's a computer game) it's not comparable. Real women's bodies are used in pornography. What is done to them really happens.

Is that what this discussion is really about - defending male partner's indefensible behaviour?

apostrophe in the wrong place there - male partners'

Elizabetth - please would you answer my questions. In my household it's me that wants to watch porn. Can I ask what your views are on that?