to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography?

[Elizabetth]

Particularly as porn has become so much more mainstream in the past few years, I'd have thought that people would be concerned about premature sexualisation of children. Also I'm surprised that so many women are fine with it given that the humiliation and degradation of women is the central theme of pornography. You only have to look at the titles to realise that.

"I would suggest some sort of sexual therapy Elizabeth..due to your past-it helped me overcome my demons."

That's more than a little cheeky. Telling opponents in an argument they need therapy is a low trick. I spoke about my experiences because I thought it would help other parents realise that objecting to porn and not allowing it in their house is good for children.

Anyway I find being anti-porn and not being afraid to speak up about it works pretty well for me.

Like I said though the denial about what porn is and the damage it does to men and women is quite something. Do you think therapy could help with that?

snort

i meant happy for their children to be involved.. that sounded waaay too scary didn't it.

p.s. great post VVVQV - some of the posts here seem to follow some rather piggish logic:

1. We don't like bad things
2. Some things about this are bad

ergo

1. We don't like this in toto

Elizabeth has mentioned about being exposed to porn as a child...I was sexually abused as a child also,I was saying maybe she needed some sort of therapy as I did to get over past demons...it helped me

PW, I didn't get a lollipop

Elizabetth - while I do feel sorry for you regarding your history, and I do not want to fight with you, I am ADAMANT that the way I raise my daughter should help her make decisions in life.

There was pron around when I was growing up. I remember finding porn on the internet when I was 15. There were naked ladies in the paper, there were boobies around all over the place.

Do I get my boobs out at every opportunity? Do I want to pose for the Sun? Have I allowed myself to be forced to do a porn film?

No.

Why?

Because I was raised by a strong mum and dad, who told me what I could do in life. Yes, I could make shit loads of cash having sex, Hell, DH and I could be a double act and we could pay off our mortgage quick time. Do I do so? No. Porn being around when I was young has not affected me.

So no, I dont want DD to grow up as a porn star. But I'd still love her if she did. I'd be worried about her, yes. But I hope that I raise her in a way that she knows all the possiblities she has in the world.

Yes, the porn star will be somebodies daughter, somebodies son, but you do not know their personal stories, or how their families feel, so please do not assume that every woman in porn is being abused.

Across the world, young children (and adults) are forced to dig for diamonds (blood diamonds), do you own diamonds? Are you comfortable wearing them even though you possibly could be wearing a diamond that people died for?

Is it just because porn was involved in your childhood (and I AM sorry about this) because if so, perhaps you need to address this issue rather than telling everybody their their DHs are perverts for watching porn.

blimey gfc I think you owe Elizabeth an apology.
bang out of order.

I HAVE NEVER BETRAYED ANDREA!

I want one that says 'I did good posting today'

"With the greatest of respect, I don't feel that anyone here is able to tell what was a 'good thing' and a 'bad thing' about past societies. It was the 'normal' thing then, in fact it was looked upon as positive to be married early, just as a minimum age of 16 for sex is the 'normal' thing now. Any deviation of that is, therefore, 'abnormal', and looked down upon by society."

A twelve year old girl is a twelve year old girl whatever century she lives in. It was Victorian feminists who raised the age of consent to stop men preying on these very young girls. Mind you there are still parts of the world where girls that age are married off. Do you apply your cultural relativism to them.

"So many of the 'rules' we hold so dear are simly constructs of our society. One could argue that 'things have moved on', or 'we've learned from experience', but I would not be so arrogant as to suggest that in anything other than a technological sense; and, as technology is exactly the method by which this 'new evil' is being prophagated, would you even want to say that?"

No idea what you're talking about.

"In addition, I'm afraid most feminists would argue STRONGLY with you regarding your views on how feminism came about, indeed about your views on pornography in general - the vast majority of feminists I know (and I know quite a few from my Sociology studies!) are very pro-porn as they see it as women claiming economic and artistic control over their bodies."

I probably know quite a few more than you do and none of them would argue in favour of porn. I know there are a few who do but they seem to have been taken in by trendy gender studies teachers. What's interesting is when they meet some real feminists away from academia their views often change and they become strongly anti-porn.

Ekk sorry if it came out wrong....apologises

GFC - I understand where you were coming from, I don't see the need for the apology.

This "debate" isn't really going anywhere.

It's not a debate if you don't listen the opinions.
EG: I didn't realise so many people were offended by porn and i've listened to their points and now understand why.

Clapham - do you have any moral absolutes in your own mind, or is everything relative in space and time as far as you are concerned? Surely we are entitled to make judgements about what we see around us in the contemporary world, without being paralysed by the endless possible permutations of comparative history?

OBM and norma - how about I buy you a big bag of pick 'n' mix and you can sort it out between yourselves.

My issue is that the OP thinks it is okay to say that anybody who has a husband who enjoys watching porn from time to time is a pervert.

I do not like horror films, I think they sensationalise violence. but I do not think it is my right to tell people they cannot watch horror films because I dont like the violence in them IYSWIM

DH likes to watch horror films. We have watched porn together. Would I let DD watch porn, leave it where she could get at it (if I ever kept any in the house) NO. Would I let her watch horror films? NO.

But I dont accept that women are irresponsible if it is in the house, or that men are perverts for watching.

to be fair lucky it is moving v quickly - I'm going to go back to the beginning once I've warmed my prawns through.
going off them though actually.

"So no, I dont want DD to grow up as a porn star. But I'd still love her if she did. I'd be worried about her, yes. But I hope that I raise her in a way that she knows all the possiblities she has in the world."

Of course you'd still love her. The point is you don't want it for her and it's very likely because she has loving and supportive parents that there is almost no chance that she'd ever end up in that situation. It's the girls who aren't so lucky, the sexually abused girls, the girls who have been raped (like Jenna Jameson) or were targeted by a pimp (like Linda Lovelace was with Chuck Traynor) who will end up in that situation. If it's not good enough for your daughter (and I agree it isn't) it shouldn't be good enough for them.

"Yes, the porn star will be somebodies daughter, somebodies son, but you do not know their personal stories, or how their families feel, so please do not assume that every woman in porn is being abused. "

Please don't assume that most of them aren't. Your view of the pornography industry is sadly skewed.

"Across the world, young children (and adults) are forced to dig for diamonds (blood diamonds), do you own diamonds? Are you comfortable wearing them even though you possibly could be wearing a diamond that people died for?"

No I don't own diamonds and I wouldn't for that very reason. Did you think you might catch me out there? Do you own diamonds?

"Is it just because porn was involved in your childhood (and I AM sorry about this) because if so, perhaps you need to address this issue rather than telling everybody their their DHs are perverts for watching porn."

This is what always happens in these kind of situations when women speak about their experiences, they are dismissed and undermined. Telling me I have an issue FFS. There is no child in the world who wouldn't be damaged by what I experienced (and BTW I didn't see that much porn, it was maybe once a year that my brother got hold of it) but lots and lots of children are having the same experience now and it is doing them no good at all.

It appears there are men out there who are more interest in their right to see women being sexually humiliated than protecting their children. As for them being perverts, well actually the first word I'd be using is "misogynists". Men who regard women as equal human beings deserving of respect don't want to see them splayed and used in porn.

Sounds good PW

I'm sorry Elizabeth, but I can't argue against such arrogant presumption as 'I probably know more feminists than you' - what are we, in the playground?!

At the end of the day, I fear we are going to have opposing views on this one. I can see your viewpoint, though I disagree with it - to a certain extent I am playing Devil's Advocate here - as you saw in my first post, I was shocked at the narrow-mindedness of some of the views on display, and so wanted to push the envelope a bit.

In the interests of balance, please find a few links to feminist views on porn, both positive and negative, below. I hope that they will give you some food for thought.

Here

Here

and here

Best

Am I a pervert too Elizabetth?

okay.. i guess.

that was about the shared picknmix btw

tmmj- that may well be the reason.

dp reckons most of the people who have a blanket dislike for all things sexual/pornographic are religious.
is that true?
i am not religious. i am a feminist. but i dont see anything wrong with porn.
i DO see wrong with the sex slave industry which is alarming in the extreme. but highly paid empowered and independent 'actresses' from western societies... im not too sure they are being exploited at all.

i havnt trawled through read the whole thread btw so apologies if this post is totally irrelevent left field.

p.s. policywonk - fair point. However, although I may have absolutes in my morals, it is also useful to challenge them from time to time, as that's how we get progress. Would we ever have HAD feminism, the anti-racist movement...ANY forward-thinking movement unless people were able to think outside their absolutes and look for another argument?