to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography?

[Elizabetth]

Particularly as porn has become so much more mainstream in the past few years, I'd have thought that people would be concerned about premature sexualisation of children. Also I'm surprised that so many women are fine with it given that the humiliation and degradation of women is the central theme of pornography. You only have to look at the titles to realise that.

Yes, policywonk, it's the fear of sounding like a hypocrite or Mary Whitehouse!

I think pornography and prostitution are issues not unlike slavery - degrading and dehumanising to the people used in them but defended at all costs by those who benefit (even in a small way) from that exploitation. Slavery was also viewed as something that would always exist. It's still going on but there aren't any defenders of it any more and governments work to stamp it out.

One of these days people will wake up to the woman-hatred involved in porn and prostitution. Maybe it's even happening now. It has to be social change that leads the way though. I don't think censorship will lead to the changes required that mean that women aren't treated this way any more.

Most of them don't KerryMum. It's a myth spread about by the porn industry. Also considering what they have to do for it means that whatever they earn, they've worked for every penny.

lots of porn is made in Eastern Europe. The women don't make much there. As far as i know, in the uk you make about £100 a day. Not exactly film star money.

Elizabetth, you are back to making generalisations that porn is degrading and humiliating. How many times must we repeat that it is not all like that? Can you not accept that there is some porn put there that women choose to participate in willingly?

What about women who film themselves masturbating and put it on sites such as youporn? Are they being degraded or humiliated...as far as I can see they're willingly participating and enjoying it.

Norma, women "willingly" (if you want to use that word) participate in gonzo porn. Willingness is not the litmus test for whether porn is degrading to women or not.

Jersey Jaxin "willingly" took part in porn, however she isn't saying how brilliant it is now.

Once again the question is why do men want to see women they don't know being treated in this manner? The only answer to that isn't a good one.

KerryMum, I know some women like watching - so what? Like I said most porn consumers are men. I bet there are very, very few women who actually pay for porn rather than just going along with whatever their partner wants to see.

norma - surely in cases like that, the woman is actually getting off on the degradation? I think there are plenty of women who have internalised male sexual contempt for women in this way. It doesn't mean it's healthy. People who self-harm are doing so willingly - does that mean that it's no-one else's business?

Elizabetth: for non-exploitative porn made by women check out Petra Joy's Strawberry Seduction and any of Anna Span's Easy On The Eye films.

I think the whoel shaved fanjo is a bit weird actually. It originally came about so the camera could see more 'meat iyswim?

But in our human history a blad vagina was a sign of prepubeseance and a very obvious sign of sexual immaturity - now bald fanjos are highly sexualised. to the point where I feel a bit uncomfortable about who is watching if a female child flashes in public, as they are wont to do, at the pool or the beach, etc.

The whole point about porn is that it contains a very blunt vocabulary to manipulate a very primal sex response, mostly in men, but it does work for women too, but it gives them a sexual frisson before they know what they are doing, or looking at. It's the proverbial no-brainer.

I'd much rather it hadn't strayed into the prepubeseant aesthetic, but the genie is out of the bottle.

And the evidence is that most women in porn are very vulnerable individuals, with histories of sexual trauma, mental health issues and more. The happy hooker (which is what porn is, only filmed for more fiscal reward for the preducers) is very very rare.

Women in erotica do seem to revel in the rewards of the industry and do seem to be impowered by their work, but when you pass from advertising yourself to selling yourself, the exchange rate reverses.

"Willingness is not the litmus test for whether porn is degrading to women or not."

That's your opinion Elizabetth.

"how about the argument that porn is degrading to ALL women?

ok there are women that wank on camera and put it on the internet and love it.

i find that degrading to all women. i think it cheapens us as a gender and does all women a disservice.

No wonder so men think it's ok to rape a woman in some circumstances when some women are doing things like that."

That is absolutely appauling. Are you really suggesting that if I let a man watch me masturbate it would be justification for him raping me?

"Jersey Jaxin "willingly" took part in porn, however she isn't saying how brilliant it is now"

How on earth that is an argument for anything is beyond me. You're quoting one former porn star for starters. Also I used to work in complaint handling...I willingly did the job but ended up leaving because it wasn't for me and I'd say it was a crap job (I could rant for hours about what I hated about it)...hardly means it's degrading and humiliating.

AND the fact is you can never be sure the women you are watching weren't trafficked, or have not lived a brutilsing life that led them to where they are now.

Yes, there are a minority of women who will do it becasue of uncomplicated personality reasons, but they are the exeption that proves a general rule. Lots is known about female sexuality now, and though they are certianly not coy, they are on average more discriminating about who they sleep with.

Porn projects a version of male sexuality, some women buy into it, but that's all they are doing - and with all the self justifications that go along with it.