to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography?

[Elizabetth]

Particularly as porn has become so much more mainstream in the past few years, I'd have thought that people would be concerned about premature sexualisation of children. Also I'm surprised that so many women are fine with it given that the humiliation and degradation of women is the central theme of pornography. You only have to look at the titles to realise that.

KM, that is hardly a real 'choice' now is it?

It's a tragic fact and I wouldn't want to get my kicks on the back of that misery, which is always the risk you take morally.

No wonder so men think it's ok to rape a woman in some circumstances when some women are doing things like that.

That is the mosrt stupid thing I have ever heard! A woman that films her self masturbating ? How is that telling men it's ok to rape?

Women are finally allowed to be sexual beings and enjoy all things sexual, christ, do you really want to go back to where we didn't??

|(from a rape survivor and a masturbator! And my rape was nothing to do with sex or porn, it was about violence and control)

agree with mt's posts

hardly any porn is marketed to women

"AND the fact is you can never be sure the women you are watching weren't trafficked, or have not lived a brutilsing life that led them to where they are now."

That applies to a lot more professions than porn and prostitution. What about people with eating disorders that have become models or actresses, should we ban the film industry as a whole? People trafficking is not restricted to porn but you wouldn't call for other industries in which it is prevalent to be banned, you'd want tighter regulation.

"That is absolutely appauling. Are you really suggesting that if I let a man watch me masturbate it would be justification for him raping me? "

In some cultures, you'd only have to go out alone to be seen as 'asking for it'.

I'm not saying any of this is ever a justification for rape, but I think we (women and feminism) needs to stop being so naive about this.

Going out in sexy clothes, getting drunk and chatting to untrustworthy (yet you trust them anyway) strangers is no justification for rape - yet the stats tell us that women are uniquely vulnerable in these situations. That isn't the same as saying don't go out and cover up, just be aware that some men will take the chance if they think they will get away with it. Rape is an opportunitic crime in most cases.

The main problem we need to tackle is the appauling prosecution rate, as it is known that the low prosecution rate acts as an incentive to some opportunistic men.

'No wonder so men think it's ok to rape a woman in some circumstances when some women are doing things like that.'
Good grief.

policywonk, actually I am not sure morality with censorship powers
is quite ready for a comeback. Having read the recent posts
I am reminded how much I despise censorship and people who
want to impose their morality on others.

Maybe all that's needed is to fence in the online porn industry more tightly,
i.e. access with credit card only etc.

It's not totally off the wall to equate some types of marriage with prostitution. Historically, and still to a certain extent, marriage can be a bargain whereupon the man provides the money and the woman provides the domestic, emotional and sexual services.

Porn, and the people who make it and perform in it, shouldn't be considered as something separate from the rest of humanity. Performers in mainstream media often have histories of trauma, depression, drug abuse etc (think of Amy Winehouse and Pete Doherty, neither of whom have had anything to do with the porn industry but neither of whom could be described as stable, happy individuals. THink of Robbie F* WIlliams and his history of drug misuse and misery). There is probably a whole other discussion about what drives people to perform and seek attention. In terms of media, porn is not viewed in isolation, nor does it offer one single message to the viewer devoid of context. (a quick side-note, not all porn features women with silicon breasts and bleached hair, you get far more variety in body types in porn than you do in the fashion and beauty mags). THe message that women who engage in lots of sex are stupid sluts who deserve no respect is put across far more strongly by the likes of the Daily Mail than by porn films. SHould there be tighter controls on the amount of bigotry the news/comment media churns out? Whether it's scare stories about asylum seekers eating the Queen's swans or shock headlines distorting experimental and inconclusive medical studies to bash one or other already-stigmatised social group, people are more likely to accept and believe what they read in a newspaper to be true than what they see on a screen as part of entertainment media.
Many if not all industries providing entertainment and pleasure have a large percentage of workers who are abused and exploited (the clothign and catering industries being particularly good examples). SHould we, for instance, forgo eating in restaurants because some kitchen staff and food producers who contribute to our delicious dinners are doing so for a pittance and at the risk of their lives - or should we call for tighter controls on safety and workers' rights?

"How on earth that is an argument for anything is beyond me. You're quoting one former porn star for starters. Also I used to work in complaint handling...I willingly did the job but ended up leaving because it wasn't for me and I'd say it was a crap job (I could rant for hours about what I hated about it)...hardly means it's degrading and humiliating."

I was making the point that your idea that "willingness" is what shows whether something is degrading or not is nonsensical. She also said that a person in porn "has no soul" - you don't often hear people who work in complaints departments saying that. Then again people who work in complaints departments aren't generally a large group of sexual abuse survivors or drug addicts.

This was an interesting piece on legalised prostitution

blimey O'reilly this is some thread. went off for a few hours and ..

On review, and fwiw, some thoughts about some concepts which keep us going round in circles because they mean hugely different things to different people.

(tho thanks policy daddyj and cestlavie, you get gold stars for pushing this on to morality, absolutes, and the ethics of precautionary measures. v interesting.)

we disagree on the meaning of 'degrading'. Some of us think that word only applies to things like being shat on, or head down toilet, and that anything else is not degrading as long as it's 'consensual' .
Some of us think that the realities involved in being filmed pretending to enjoy sex are degrading per se, regardless of whether the sex depicted is 'brutal' or 'vanilla'.

we disagree on 'consensual' and 'choice'.
Some of us believe that as long as the woman has not been drugged or physically forced to have sex, all is okay. May not want to watch it personally, but won't criticize it.
Some of us believe that many women have such limited choices that these choices are no choices at all. (feed habit must fuck. feed kid must fuck. am already totally fucked-up so one more fuck makes no difference)

we disagree on 'harm'
Some of us believe that 'harm' refers to the individual. As long as the actor isn't harmed, then no harm done.
Some of us believe that harm is done to all of us because the porno version of woman-ness is internalized by us all.

we disagree on the idea of sexual freedom.
Some of us believe that porn enhances, in fact is essential to, sexual freedom.
Some of us believe that sexual freedom has nothing to do with porn, which shores up a broader social inequity.

Sorry if this description leans in my direction - tried to be neutral. ...ish.

But I think that these fundamental differences in what we think 'consent' (for example) means will keep us circular..

ooh-er, good summing up onebat.

I don't like these "women in porn make men think its OK to rape us" arguments. I don't think they are very helpful or a useful argument against porn. Certainly porn does increase men's sexual callousness towards women, but that isn't the performers' fault.

Madamez the problem with your analogies is that all those types of work can be done without exploitation however porn is different because in porn the woman's body is the commodity. Porn is impossible to make without exploiting another human being whether it's the producer doing it or the consumer.

I mentioned morality too - just a heads up

Well put MT, I have thought several times that we need to define our terms on this thread if we are really looking for points we can agree on.

daddyj - fair enough, 'tis a man's prerogative to change his mind! However, this is one of those freedom to/freedom from problems, isn't it. Western society places a lot of value on freedoms to (freedom of speech, expression and so on), but less value on freedoms from (freedom from violence, poverty, exploitation, and, in the context of this thread, sexual violence). I think you can argue that 'freedoms to' tend to be enjoyed by those who are 'powerful' (status, money, gender), while 'freedoms from' are often more valuable to those with less status (in this case, women).

Oh I'm sorry OBM, it was you, not MT.

I think the 'blame' for men raping women should never be taken away from the men who do it.

There might be other factors, such as the level of brutality in a rape, but the rape would probably have taken place anyway. There's no evidence to show that porn increases rape incidence. Bad prosecution policy is a different matter thjough

"No wonder so men think it's ok to rape a woman in some circumstances when some women are doing things like that. "

Of all the things posted on this thread - that comment has to be the most ridiculous, ill-informed and crass.

"Madamez the problem with your analogies is that all those types of work can be done without exploitation however porn is different because in porn the woman's body is the commodity. Porn is impossible to make without exploiting another human being whether it's the producer doing it or the consumer."

Actually I disagree with this on two points. I think some of the most profound music comes from people with troubled lives and drug problems and so I'm not sure you can say these people aren't exploited by music producers (if we take the same reasoning you use to say porn stars are exploited as true). Secondly I don't think it is impossible to make porn without exploitation. I think your definition of 'being exploited' is very subjective.

I always wanted the freedom to walk into WH Smiths at the station and not be confronted with row of women with their legs splayed apart and waiting for the male viewer. Freedom not to be reminded that my place in society was as a f*ck toy for men.

Stuff like that made me feel crap, and if it happened in a workplace I'd have been able to sue for sexual harassment. If it's in public though it's fine apparently.

monkey sorry between reading and posting, suddenly, there you were being spectacularly clever and succinct. (tho need to read the whole 'asking for it' bit again..)

mt i don;t mean you were saying 'asking for it' i mean that part of the general debate.

oh god yes MT. And that is a whole other thread entirely.

Using a body as a commodity doesnt automatically = exploitation.

Models arent exploited (although admittedly there are some sinister sides to that business too), I dont think other actors are exploited either. Singers? Manual labourers?

Great summing up, obm! Particularly for a 15 year old

The one thing that I am concerned about
is that violent porn becomes mainstream.

Earlier on I was more gung-ho about censorship
because I mistakenly thought Bangbros is the
site with the violent stuff - not so, my bad.

I love the way TMMJ is getting jumped on for what she said but I don't think I've ever heard a porn defender talking about rape porn. Speak to any bloke and he'll probably tell you that he gets rape porn spam in his e-mail just about every day.

Imagine getting turned on by the thought of a woman getting raped. It appears that a lot of men do.