to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography?

[Elizabetth]

Particularly as porn has become so much more mainstream in the past few years, I'd have thought that people would be concerned about premature sexualisation of children. Also I'm surprised that so many women are fine with it given that the humiliation and degradation of women is the central theme of pornography. You only have to look at the titles to realise that.

I agree that "violence" against women is wrong.

HOWEVER

Should we be banning violence off the TV and regular films as well?

I go back to the film mentioned before Baise Moi - God knows how that got released. The basic idea is a couple of girls get raped and then go on a really violent killing and raping spree.

My opinion on alot of the culture today seems to be that if it is commited against women its bad, if its against men its "entertainment" and I feel this has to be addressed as wel.

Good point LuckySalem, I personally think films like Football Factory are worse than many porn movies.

I see what you are saying soph and it is a thorny proiblem. My viewpoint is that sexual violence against women has become so endemic (and so consequence-free for the perpetrators) that it is time to take extraordinary action, and simply outlaw all sexual imagery that depicts any combination of women, violence and sex. (I realise that I sound like Mary Whitehouse, but I really think we are in a crisis situation, and as I said before, I do think that this sort of porn contributes greatly to violence against women.)

As far as gay S+M/violent sex portrayal goes - as far as I know, there is no comparable epidemic of sexual violence against men. Depictions of men being roughly treated/hurt/humiliated during sex are not the norm, and they are not reflections of a broader societal truth. So I don't think the problem is as profound in those cases.

VictorianSqualor really agree about the sex education - that's got to be the way forward.

The difference between violence in films and the sex in porn is that the latter is real. Also there is a lot of violence in porngraphy. The actresses really are getting hurt as that ex-porn performer talked about in the quote I gave further up the thread.

Violence against men apart from boxing isn't enshrined as entertainment.

I agree VS.

Sweden is an example of a place where banning stuff works. In Germany (I think its germany) they make it legal to do porn and prostitution and I think its brought the same result (kinda)

In Sweden things don't get done because you'd get serious trouble (although I expect like everything there is an underground want for it) In Germany things are done and policed (again probably an illegal underground part)

I honestly don't know which is the best approach.

The amount of gonzo porn or degrading porn that
depicts men in the victim role is absolutely minimal.

There are certainly men around who want to be 'disciplined',
i.e. humiliated by women. That genre is quite old actually.

However, how many women actually consume that type of porn
and subsequently go around spanking random men
and making them drink their own urine?

I would guess: Very very few women!

There is outlawing all scenes with women , sex and violence, and then there is deciding exactly what constitues as violence.

Is spanking violence? Hair pulling? Biting? or does it have to be more severe?
I honestly think that with better sex education, and better guidelines regarding the sale of porn, and what is allowed to be depicted, porn could be a part of manageable, sexual stimulation.

oh i dont know.... NOT FOR THE FAINTHEARATED EXERCISE CAUTION BEFORE OPENING THIS

Policy: you know, that's an interesting point. I guess from a libertarian/ JS Mills perspective the answer would be determined by whether the harm caused to an open society is outweighed by the benefit from the reduction in sexual offences.

So, yes, potentially, but personally I'd need to see that there was a link between use of certain sorts of porn and sexual crimes and honestly I have not seen anything to support this other than anecdotal evidence. If sexual offences against women are on the increase then what effect (if any) does 'gonzo' porn have on this? What about magazines like Loaded?

I would like to emphasise that I am not against doing so, and hell, if it showed there was a link then I would be absolutely in favour of banning it, but would like to see decisions taken on fact.

but E its still out there, we are still showing it - By rights this is how porn started, a few here and there and now its mainstream and women are getting hurt.

I still don't agree that this is down to porn, I think its down to society in general. BUT by your thinking if we start showing films where MEN are getting abused and degraded it'll start in real life.

I dont think its always about women viewing men in a submissive manner, its about men seeing women in a dominant role and as such, that genre has always been quite popular.

Elizabetth, I disagree, I have, sadly, been involved with a guy who used to think that films such as Football factory etc, were great, he loved the violence, and would be violent to others on a regular basis. To him the violence may as well have been real.

Also porn, is a film genre, therefore a lot of it is likely to be acted as much as any other film.

VVV - Disguisting! I don't get it#!

Just re-read what I posted, I didn't mean you were disguisting. I meant the content was. I just don't get the thrill at all!!

But it wasn't VictorianSqualor. It is really difficult to have a discussion where you are basically saying up is down. The violence wasn't real. It's like sayig that the sex in mainstream Hollywood movies is real - no it isn't.

Double anal, cum farts (google it), blow jobs, whatever else they make porn actresses do these days are not acted, these things actually happen to the performers. That is the appeal.

Exactly: how do we establish a link between
gonzo and 'impact on society'?

Tricky.

And what type of gonzo is bad?
Bangbros, maybe.
But what about FSRP websites - ban them too?

LOL I know Lucky

Not my cup of tea either, but it does exist and a cursary google reveals many sites of the same genre. Look up:

Ballbusting
Trampling
CBT
Whipping
Female Domination

Are we not talking violence here Elizabetth??
That in some porn, is surely acted.

As for saying up is down, you still refuse to agree that men are possibly being exploited and degraded here, you still refuse to answer any poster who questions women that actually enjoy doing that, you still refuse to answer any question that does not leave the answer that it is degrading to women and is therefore wrong.

At least I have been willing to take on others comments and agree that there are problems in the porn industry which no doubt need dealing with.

E - I agree that it is different but surely you can understand that its having the same degree of effect?
I know that the rape scene in Baise Moi wasn't real but didn't mean I couldn't watch it.
I know that Honey wasn't really hit the other night in eastenders but that doesn't mean I didn't believe it and honestly worry about the condition of her baby.

"Double anal, cum farts (google it), blow jobs, whatever else they make porn actresses do these days are not acted, these things actually happen to the performers. That is the appeal."

I don't see anything wrong with the performers participating in these acts as long as they are happy to do so. Please stop generalising that women must be being degraded to take part in such acts. Some women enjoy it.

To be fair norma - I find it hard to believe anyone can enjoy double anal....but, each to their own....

Oh and yes, thanks lucky you reminded me of my point!

My ex used to watch films in which violence was depicted, and reenact them, THAT means that the films are having an impact on society and the way peiople act, also obviously making the violent crime statistics go up.

So whether what he watched was real or not, it had the impact on society that it was real.
Also, do I have to go to some of the smut sites that also have real gang fights? real beatings? and produce links to prove it is just as rife as sex vids?

Norma, they are paid to do it. If they were enjoying it there wouldn't be the drug problem in the industry that there is. They need to drug themselves up to endure those things.

I think the fact that men will pay women to endure these really hideous practices is very worrying. What does it say about the men who enjoy watching these things? Why do they want to see women being hurt? There are a lot more of them than women who enjoy two penises in their rectums.

Not every porn actor/ress does drugs!

Crikey elizabetth, you really need to take off the blinkers and stop seeing such a one-sided view of what you imagine the porn industry to be like.