to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography?

[Elizabetth]

Particularly as porn has become so much more mainstream in the past few years, I'd have thought that people would be concerned about premature sexualisation of children. Also I'm surprised that so many women are fine with it given that the humiliation and degradation of women is the central theme of pornography. You only have to look at the titles to realise that.

ShinyHappy is onto something.
Porn has drug-like attributes, one of which is that the 'addict'
frequently needs to increase the strength of the drug.

In my view, that's the reason why online porn has very quickly gone
from vanilla to gonzo and maybe, now it's time for us to say: Stop.

What comes after gonzo? Actually injuring the girl?
I have seen comics that depict just that
(and they are stomach-churning).

Sorry is cestlavie a man? Missed that. Sorry.

porn puts pressure on men sometimes tho doesn't it? I mean adolescents boys, who must watch vast amounts of the stuff, don't they feel some pressure to have huge penises and to keep sex going for hours?

It is very difficult to explain to a male brain i think that women may have fantasies about being dominated in sex, but it is just that, a fantasy, something to be played out in the safe confines of two consenting adults and not something that women want all the time, IYSWIM.

[what is gonzo? obviously very sheltered...]

sophable, I know!
I hate censorship!!

But that's why I am so troubled.
I see this stuff and I sense I know
where it's heading next -
and I am thinking:
Is there really nothing we can do?

Is it really healthy for our society
that this material is readily available?

great post policy, but i do question your second assumption that a couple would want to film their sexual actions only because of the pornographication (i am george bush in dead ringers) of society....

the will to depict sex has been around as long as the act itself.

Actually, I found your responses to my posts harsh, sarcastic and unnecessarily rude, Elizabeth. I'm not entirely sure why you felt the need to react that way to my posts which were in no way attacking you, nor were they ill-informed, so I your protests about being badly treated on here fall flat with me I'm afraid.

You have mentioned several times that posts about "friends" opinions etc mean squat, and yet you post comments such as:

"Of course Larry Flynt, the owner of Hustler and darling of "free speech" luvvies everwhere, did molest his own daughter according to her." (Although my main issue with this comment really is that child abuse happens in all set ups - not just 'porn magnates').

"Yeah this sounds like more of the kind of thing they'd market to women. We're always supposed to be on a self-improvement jag, whether it's more confidence, losing weight or fifty top tips to give a better blow job." again - your own assessment.

"This is standard porn crap. BTW a lot of nurses hate the pornification of their profession - they find it incredibly offensive. " How do you know this and how much is "A lot"?

I agree with all of madamez posts on here.

How does Porn sexualise our children though?
Not a great lover of POrn myself, but I can't quite see how it would effect our Kids....as you obviously weren't talking about Childporn, which, of course is absolutely disgusting and illegal.

ruty - i agree and also I'm with you on the gonzo porn thing. I think its REALLY hardcore leaning on violent sex.

Orm, I think you have opened up a new part to the debate their, the way these women look, now that in many ways is demoralising to women.
And probably a large part of why I do not enjoy por, I don;t find a skinny girl who has bleached her hair slapped on some red lippy and had a boob job attractive, anymore than I find sex with a man with an almost immpossibly large penis particularly attractive.

I personally would be much more likely to watch a film if I felt that the people in it were attractive in a real way rather than the barbie fixation.

I also think that this idea of the perfect woman is what makes a lot of women uncomforatble, it is so unrealistic, and something not many of us are anywhere near likely to ever look like, so it can be saddening to be expected to be like that.

ruty/VictorianS, dominating the girl is one thing.

I have to admit: I enjoy it from time to time
and so has every single partner I have had.
Emphasis is on 'from time to time'!

But systematically humiliating the girl?
I think that's different.

cestlavie, I didnt realise you were a man either, if I had I would have asked for your male opinions too! sorry!

(good points no matter what sex you are though)

as i understand it gonzo porn is reality porn. a 'real' set up such as a beach house, loads of women, drink and bloke wandering around with hand held camera filming events as they unfolded rather than 'directed' pornography.

it has quickly disintegrated in much the same way that reality tv per se has.

sophable - I think there is a difference between wanting to potray sex (and I agree that has been around for ever) and wanting to record oneself having sex. That has a narcissistic quality that I find more dubious somehow.

I agree daddyj, and maybe that is something that needs to be monitored, with stricter rules, there is of course a huge difference between 'rough sex' and actual humiliation.

Although, there are people who enjoy sado-masochism to a whole new level, and not just the hair pulling, bondage, spanking etc, but actually being humiliated.

so it's LESS morally suspect if someone else is filming?

The answer to the problem of pornography is twofold. I mentioned it on the last porn thread here but the first thing to do is to make paying for sex illegal like they do in Sweden. Prostitutes have been decriminalised but johns' actions are illegal. Women's bodies are not commodities although that is the message that both porn and prostitution send out.

The other thing is to make it possible for people who have been harmed by porn to sue pornographers. I think a lot of ex porn performers with PTSD and other mental and physical problems would come forward. Linda Lovelace tried to sue the makers of Deep Throat but was unable to get any justice, despite the fact that the porn-makers had made millions from filming her rape.

Policywonk, you may be right about the porn ethic, but if so it's nothing new. There's loads of stuff about watching and being watched (for hard cash) in 18th Century smut.

Not that it's any more morally acceptable because it's 250 years old, but I think the instinct runs pretty deep.

cestlavie: 'The broader question maybe, is what is the effect on society of people watching this sort of pornography? And the answer is I don't know and (unlike E) I'm not going to jump to conclusions. My suspicion is that it's effect is probably negative...'

and

sophable: 'daddyj, regarding the horrible sounding scene you describe. you can't ban something because you feel it's horrible'

Now, I am surprised by this. We are in the middle of an epidemic of violence against women. Men who rape have a 95 per cent chance of getting off scot-free. Fifty per cent of men (according to a recent survey) think it's OK to have sex with a woman who is saying 'no'.

Surely now is the time to apply the precautionary principle? At least for gonzo porn, can you not find it in yourselves to say that it might be best to err on the side of caution and outlaw the really violent, degrading stuff (and police such a ban effectively), and take the risk that in doing so there is a possibility that freedom of expression might be unfairly circumscribed?

now elizabeth that is a post i can engage with:

is prostitution on the decrease in sweden?

agree absolutely that people abused in porn should be allowed to sue the abusers: and they can!! just as someone working in an office that was abused could. if your argument is that campaigners should work hard to change attitudes so that such a case could realistically be brought and won i absolutely agree.

Elizabetth, I agree with both of your points there, but does that mean you think the porn industry should be allowed to continue, with stricter rules and more safety measures for the actual actor/resses?

And again, what about men???
It is not only women in these movies.

Hmmm..... see what you mean. But I think auto-porn (??) is quite different area. I mean, do you view it and gives yourselves marks out of ten, worry about toning those wobbly thighs . I can't help thinking that sex would become less and less spontaneous and more and more staged.

E - Is there actually anything stopping abused porn stars from suing? I would have thought the thing that would make it most difficult for them would be if their participation had been illegal, so surely the answer is legal and well regulated porn.

Agree about prostitution in Sweden.

policywonk. you can outlaw underage participants. you can outlaw violence that is against the consent of the victim. but how on earth can you outlaw depictions of rough sex?

where can you draw the line.

this is like those two guys that were prosecuted for consensually performing a sexual act that involved one of them nailing the others' penis to a plank (!). the police involvement was completely wrong imo. you cannot and should not try to police what turns people on and if a sex act is performed consensually you cannot ban it, nor ban it's depiction.

Whilst we are talking about sweden, isn't their level of sex education a million times better than ours???
From what I remember about Davina Macoll and the PSHE thing, in Sweden there is a higher level of education devoted to the feelings surrounding sex and sexual relationships, rather than just 'man puts willy in lady, egg gets fertilized, baby comes along'.
Surely if we taught our children how sex of any form, between two consenting, totally agreeable adults, whether it be filmed or not, is perfectly acceptable, however, anyone being forced or co-erced into anything is not?