to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography?

[Elizabetth]

Particularly as porn has become so much more mainstream in the past few years, I'd have thought that people would be concerned about premature sexualisation of children. Also I'm surprised that so many women are fine with it given that the humiliation and degradation of women is the central theme of pornography. You only have to look at the titles to realise that.

onebatmother

agree FioFio - depressing. Yet somehow weirdly amusing that some posters keep harping on about wanting to film themselves shagging and force us all to watch it. Like we would be interested....

ooh can we all just bin our differences, join together and become a slaglike mass?

obm - will it be ok if I keep my clothes on?

no

I'm assuming you're referring to me Donnie ...and err...no, I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. I like people to have their own preferences and to make their own choices.

sorry, yes!
I feel I'm contributing to a general lowering of tone and will leave now. really.

oh hang on - i think it's a sluglike mass that I turned into

swedes - parp. wouldsay more but have sick 22mo on lap preventing two handed typing.

E, thank you for last comment re use of word slag.

have to go and sit with sick ds3 now.

By onebatmother on Thu 15-Nov-07 12:33:59:

yes policy genuine big ooooh.
But do feel slighted that we weren't mentioned by name, don't you? D'you think it was the sticker thing?

Yes I do feel rather slighted. Maybe we should bombard her with slightly inane emails on the subject?

To those of you who feel that Elizabetth is anti-men: you must accept, surely, that most demand for porn (historically and today) comes from men, and that the overwhelming majority of cases of sexual violence are perpetrated by men, and that the objectification of women is something that has largely been accomplished (if that's the word) by men. Therefore, it makes a certain sort of sense to use 'men' as a shorthand in these arguments.

It seems clear to me, reading her posts on the topic, that she is referring to men who use a lot of porn, men who buy sex, men who routinely objectify women. I have a male partner and two small boys, and I have never felt that Elizabetth is anti-male.

BeautifulBoys, Elizabetth has been quite grossly insulted on this thread once (post now deleted), and has been addressed rudely (at a personal level) by many others. She doesn't have a persecution complex. I think she is quite right to say that those who speak out strongly against porn get all sorts of personal abuse.

im off to watch some porn

BBG - Hope your DS3 gets better soon. x

"To those of you who feel that Elizabetth is anti-men: you must accept, surely, that most demand for porn (historically and today) comes from men, and that the overwhelming majority of cases of sexual violence are perpetrated by men, and that the objectification of women is something that has largely been accomplished (if that's the word) by men. Therefore, it makes a certain sort of sense to use 'men' as a shorthand in these arguments."

Yes, I do accept that. However it seems everyone on the anti-porn side is unwilling to accept that not all women find porn degrading, not all women feel objectified by it and some women enjoy it.

policy i feel slightly ashamed at having not made that point in E's defence earlier. I started being silly at the back (Swedes made me do it.)

You are absolutely right though, i don't see any anti-men slant in E's thinking. I think this is often a distraction grenade used against people who complain about misogyny though.

kittock

YANBU Elizabeth

norma - I wonder whether this comes down to differences in the way posters see the world. I'm a great big commie at heart, and the following sums up my position on most things:

No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manner of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.

That is to say, I quite accept that, at a personal level, some women can like porn and not feel personally degraded. I also believe that porn DOES degrade ALL women (and ALL men, incidentally), because it is a degrading medium. I think that porn's degrarding effect on society means that it is more important to fight against it than to safeguard the liberties of the relatively small number of women who enjoy it.

Well as someone who has spoken out in public in favour of porn and been called a slag, a child molester, a front person for organised crime and a psychopath I can;t quite accept that is only the poor little pro-censorship lobby who get insulted.
(oh, and to save time and misunderstanding, I am not referring specifically to this thread or indeed to MN)

And as to where I get my information from: the best part of 20 years working in and around the porn industry. I have been on shoots (still and moving) worked on w4ebsites, edited magazines, reviewed books and videos and DVDs and appeared in a few as well. I have met lots of porn performers over the years, some of whom have been extremely sorted people (one of whom is now a doctor), some fuckups - but I have met the same number of fucked-up, insecure drug addled people who worked in advertising or the music business.
I've had various issues with various people an organisations about bad practice, low pay etc, and tried to make changes where possible and at least get as good a deal as I could for whoever was working with or under me on any given project.
But I still maintain that there is nothing inherently wrong with looking at or making sexually explicit images for the entertainment of others, with engaging in roleplay, dressing up, messing about, showing off and exploring your own sexual limits. If it's not your cup of tea, fine, go and do something else.
But a society which prohibits sexual expression and sexual discussion usually has an appalling record of misogyny and mistreatement of women. Prohibition is never the right answer.

Well said Madamez.

Madamez - Your name suits you.

Policywonk: thanks for that post about the way you see the world. You and I are never going to agree that it's a good thing to remove anyone's liberty to look at things on the grounds that some people subjectively fine them 'degrading'.
Even though there is a far better case to be made for banning religion on the grounds that many of its proponents use it to justify genocide as well as misogyny and individual acts of violence, I don't think taht the religious believers who maintain that their beliefs comfort them and inspire them to be honest, helpful, generous etc, deserve to have their rights suppressed.

amen to that

Madamez - Well said!!

In reagrds to the OP - YANBU for being surprised but I don't agree with your posts or points. Apart from the fact that SOME men and women are degraded and SOME are druggies etc etc. Just stop trying to tar EVERYONE with the same brush.

Also out of interest and before I bow out again, what would be your feelings to meeting people (MEN AND WOMEN) in the porn business? Are they to be rescued or slated??

madamez, thanks for sharing!
seriously though, is it possible that you've been involved in a very cheerful corner of a not very cheerful industry?
this has been my experience in the past with porn pos fems.

PW - My personal view is that being open about sex and its place in the world allows people to express their feelings without feeling dirty or oppressed. It's still the case that people hide their true sexuality for fear of what people will think of them. People hide their feelings and fantasies from their partners and then complain that their sex lives aren't satisfying. Surely a society that is more open to sex is a better society than one where people hide their true feelings out of fear.