to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography?

[Elizabetth]

Particularly as porn has become so much more mainstream in the past few years, I'd have thought that people would be concerned about premature sexualisation of children. Also I'm surprised that so many women are fine with it given that the humiliation and degradation of women is the central theme of pornography. You only have to look at the titles to realise that.

But madamez, it's no good trying to pretend that it's that black-and-white. I know that you are happy about the prohibition of images of, for instance, child abuse. What we are arguing about is the boundaries - at what point does the damage to society justify prohibition. You don't believe that porn inflicts that much damage. I do.

OBM: I would say that from my experience of talking to lots of other people I met over the years (models, consumers, swingers, film-makers etc) that the bad, exploitative, coercive side of the industry (in terms of actual mistreatment of performers as opposed to what is said on camera ie 'acting') is not that common - some people had stories but they were usually stuff that had supposedly happened to a friend of a friend. As I said previously, I did encounter examples of bad practice and made efforts to put a stop to them, be it late payers or groping photogrpahers.

ANd I didn;t just work in a 'corner' of the industry: I 've worked, at some stage, for just about all the big players and a fair few of the independents.

also I think 'subjectively' is used a bit mischievously.
yes my subjective view is subjective. But I subjectively think that porn degrades all women, not just me. therefore don't want it in the world.

well said normabutty re sexual expression - but what does that have to do with porn?

Perhaps I could ask a couple of hopefully Socratic questions to people on this:

Do people believe that all pornography in and of itself is wrong per se, even where it is consensual (both the act and the distribution of it)?

Or

Do people believe that all pornography is never and can never be consensual and that the woman is always being forced into the act and/ or has the pornography distributed without her consent?

Or

Do people believe that even though pornography is consensual, the distribution and consumption of it is inherently wrong?

I'm just curious as to what people object to it, object about: That what is an onstensibly private act is made public (i.e. morality)? That the industry around it is exploitative (i.e. the porn business)? And/ or that the way its consumed and used is damaging to society (i.e. effect on society)?

"You don't believe that porn inflicts that much damage. I do."

I don't believe that porn causes people to be violent, I don't believe that porn causes people to rape, I don't believe that porn causes people to molest children. I believe that is part of the person. Admittedly those people are often found to have porn but I believe that is because the nature of their crimes is sexual. Similarly I don't believe that playing violent video games causes people to be violent, I believe they are drawn to those games because of their need to show violence.

OBM - I respect your opinion.

is madamez a porn star? sorry she said shse worked in the industry, doing what exactly mademez?

Policywonk: actaully, I'm unhappy about people abusing children (whether to make images or just for the sake of it). I'm indifferent to the production of images that do not involve actual people at all (cartoons, computer-generated/manipulated photography etc). And i'm concerned by the way that the pro-censorship lobby are always invoking child porn as a way to attack adult sexuality.

Ah well norma, I do believe that porn causes sexual violence. That's my basic problem with it.

(I believe that this might also answer any/all of cestlavie's questions?)

madamez - just to clarify - I was in no way trying to imply that are you happy about child abuse. I was pointing out that this is one area in which you think that prohibition is acceptable.

OBM - I was trying to say that perhaps people should be more accepting of others choices to enjoy watching porn or make porn. Perhaps they shouldn't be made to feel like they are wrong, dirty, degraded or perverted.

ALM: I have been a writer and editor, a production assistant on films, an occasional bit-part actor in films, a researcher for adult TV programmes, a voice-over artist, a club reviewer and a porn film reviewer.

Madamez,not talking about the actual mistreatment either, really, at this point.

But my own observation is that in general the performers (both male and female) did not seem to be people in charge of their own destiny (for various reasons) With the occasional and notable exception.

However, I think it's highly disingenuous to argue that child-abuse porn and adult porn are somehow two completely distinct sectors, with no areas of overlap.

Policywonk: I think that abuse is the problem, whether or not images are made is irrelevant to the fact that a crime has been committed.

TMMJ - If you read my post properly I did not say that I felt that way. I'm quite comfortable to say I watch porn and I enjoy it, but there are some people who don't feel they can admit it.

oh madamez you've really got me going!

I sooo badly want to be able to say madamez you are "real name" and I claim my .. what would I claim?

thank you luckysalem, and I yours.

madamez the images extend the abuse though, don't they. they are not irrelevant to it..

madamez - were you in Debbie Does Dallas?

Agree with Madamez, but also with Policywonk in that it's where you draw the boundaries that is the issue. Porn is not one thing - it encompasses really bad abusive stuff that nobody would condone, and really quite sweet stuff people falling in love with their ponies. OK bad example.

But seriously, for those who would like to see tighter restrictions on pornography (no pun intended), where would you like to see the line drawn? (genuine question)

Is it time to ban Lady Chatterley again? (not so genuine question).

I don't think its inherently wrong. I think what concerns me a bit is certain porn, the one in which the acting or role play puts women in a submissive or degraded role. Not because of itself, but because the effect it may have on men who like watching that. I cannot help thinking that those men will end up thinking that all women want to do that in RL and that a no means yes.
I also think it is addictive. For some it may help to spice up their lives, but for others it can ruin them, if their partners are not up to those fantasies.
Sorry if this has been discussed before, I didn't read the whole thread.

'However, I think it's highly disingenuous to argue that child-abuse porn and adult porn are somehow two completely distinct sectors, with no areas of overlap.'

Indeedy. "Barely Legal" anyone?

I remember one of the porn mags I saw when I was a kid was a shoot with a very young woman who looked as if she'd only reached puberty - displaying everything with cuddly toys as props. This was in a mainstream mag like Men Only. (Sorry if that's too much information but I can't see how we can talk about these things if we don't actually talk about them).

Thanks for defending me up there BTW, policywonk.