to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography?

[Elizabetth]

Particularly as porn has become so much more mainstream in the past few years, I'd have thought that people would be concerned about premature sexualisation of children. Also I'm surprised that so many women are fine with it given that the humiliation and degradation of women is the central theme of pornography. You only have to look at the titles to realise that.

actually I agree, slammwhitecat, women don't see men as things, but we do sometimes use men for our own pleaseure! (and, yeah, why pay for sex when there are plenty of men out there who will oblige us for free? )

"Rather than asking questions why don't you make an argument LS? This isn't a Q&A session."

Aren't we allowed to questions your opinions???

I'm just interested that someone who has such a strong opinion about the men who watch porn doesn't seem to give any opinions about the women who do so.

I'm trying to understand where you're coming from E. How can I argue against you if I don't understand you.

Besides, this isn't an argument!! It's a debate during which there are questions!

You know my opinion and I've heard yours, i'm trying to route out why you have that opinion. I already know why I have mine. If you don't want to answer the question then fine just say it!

I used to think porn was OK OverMyDeadBody so your argument doesn't stand up.

I didn't start seeing the problems with it (the fact it is about the humilation and sexual use of women) until I was in my mid-twenties. Before that I thought it was rather exciting and rather rebellious. So you could say I was brainwashed by porn.

brought up in a matriarchal world - really?
in a world of women maybe, when young.

Not the same thing.

smallwhitecat - I'm sure I read something regarding a male escort and how good his business is, he based his reasons on the fact that many women are not settling down right off and are in better jobs, and can afford to splash the cash!

slamwhite - that does make sense and I agree with it.

Don't agree OBMS. I think ours is an overwhelmingly male-dominated society, particularly where sexuality is concerned. You literally cannot walk down the street without seeing an advertisement for Zoo or Nuts, or the front cover of a tabloid showing a sexually explicit image.

The mners defending pornography here seem to be talking about a level of pornography that is barely the tip of the iceberg - erotica or old style 'soft porn' - or the kind made by women which is rarely violent or degrading.

The reason I am not fine with pornography is that the vast majority of it now is nothing like that, the briefest of searches will bring up 99% violence, humiliation and degradation - anal, facials and gangbangs seeming to be the most prevalent.

Message withdrawn

Also, women are to blame for the upsurge of nakedness in our society

Look at the young women walking around town at night, they have it all on show, some happy to flash boobs and even lady bits. Look at the young starlets getting out of cars with no knickers on. How can you blame men for that? Girls/women flirt and know how to get men to do what they want. In healthy situations, no man gets sex unless the woman says yes, we hold the power (again, in healthy, mainstream situations, not talking about rape)

Women seem to flaunt it all to get the men, then cover it all up and the poor men no longer get sex (every married/partnered man I have ever met has said the sex went almost as soon as they settled down)

Then these same women moan that their partners are watching porn and masturbating. Of course they are, men do have a high sex drive and will find a way of releasing it

if women stopped the sex games, maybe porn wouldn't be so mainstream

Ok, was just throwing thoughts into the air. I'm sure our upbringing does have some shaping on how we view these things though.

As I said, it isn't black and white. I don't think here is one cause or one effect of porn on society. It is complex.

Hey Elisabetth, sorry to interrupt,
I had to think of you the other day
when I came across this article about the Swedes -
and thought you would be pleased to hear
there might be light at the end of the tunnel!

Unfortunately, the article is in German but essentially
it says that the Swedes are on their way to completely rooting
out prositution. They even teach their children at primary school
level that buying sex is wrong!

I am mentioning this on your anti-porn thread
because if the Swedes succeed other countries will have
to take this example seriously.
And what's more, once prostitution is rendered culturally
unacceptable, the same can be done much more easily with porn.

I guess that depends on the woman SWC. I'm sure like there are some men who like porn and some who don't the same applies to women. You can't just ignore the women because they're in the minority.

it's all focusing - v unfairly i think - on e's individual history, hence her 'not a q and a' point.

Her history has influenced her argument, yes.
But her argument would still stand proud without her experience.

I remember reading somewhere that porn is being pushed more towards couples as that is the main amount of people who are buying porn now (that and the young single male)

Message withdrawn

Well, lots of people do things and change in their mid twenties.

When I was in my late teens, I'd go out drinking on Fri nights, and spend Sat with a hangover. I wouldn't do it now, in my mid/late twenties.

You can change your views on things; everybody changes as they get older, but that does not give you an automatic right to tell people what they like (which you used to) is wrong (unless it is smoking which is always wrong )

Just rereading the chapter - it's v interesting. It's a story of a chap who owns a company that makes porn - quite a low-output thing by comparison.

He sometimes puts breastmilk in his coffee on set. He says he "doesn't like to be extreme with women. There's no call for it."

Jordan is a prime example of how the porn attitude to women is reflected in the mainstream media - she is the media darling because she is happy to be use and objectified. Look at the difference in media attitude to someone like Cherie Blair, who has opinions, doesn't play the game, and doesn't fit in with the look sexy and shut up attitude.

minority..
oh never mind.

Turquoise, I'd dispute the 99%.

Also I'd only watch stuff in porn that I was happy to do myself.

'Also, women are to blame for the upsurge of nakedness in our society'

Oooh I disagree with that. Women are walking around half-naked at night because they think that is what wil;l make them seem attractive to men, because that is what society has conditioned them to think. The fact that they hold all the shots with regard sex doesn't mean they are dressing like that for themselves.

To me this isn't the same as porn though.