To think this is rude and selfish?

[SylHellais]

We went to a visitor attraction today with a cafe/restaurant on site. All the six tables (large round picnic type tables which would seat 6) were full, but three of them were occupied by one person at each table who had no drink or food but were just sitting there reading or looking at phones. There were other tables nearby not served by the cafe where people could sit.

Personally, I think the staff should have moved the non-eating/drinking people on, but they were clearly unwilling to, even when we pointed out that it was lunchtime and there were people occupying the tables who were not eating or drinking. We weren’t rude or confrontational about this, before anyone starts, it was just a polite comment.

All three of them saw us and other people trying to find somewhere to sit but chose to ignore us. The cafe were actually brilliant and did takeaways for us all so it was fine, but it just irritated me that these three men were determined to occupy tables when they didn’t need to.

I also hate this, OP. I wish cafes would have tables for 2 that could be pushed together for larger groups, and back in the day when I was working in a cafe, we would ask people to leave if they weren’t ordering anything but just sitting at our tables, too!

The staff should have encouraged them to move on. It’s their job.

I normally ask if we can join them in that situation, although in current times probably not allowed.

@ThatIsMyPotato

it was three separate men aged about 40-50 with no signs of disability (though I accept in hindsight they could have had a hidden disability!)

Their age and the gender you perceive them as is relevant why?

Not hard to figure out.

The MEN were doing what MEN are characterized a being typical of doing: the "I'm alright jack" attitude.

Even if that isn't OPs point, basic English language dictates that "descriptors make it more engaging for the reader, and can help make your story more accessible"

Even my 8 year old understands that

So the Op was merely giving a description.

Oh, and most people are quite happy to be described based on our appearance. So when I'm described as. 30-40 year old woman cause I've got tits and have several obvious clues that I'm female thats entirely normal. So do fuck off with "perceived gender" cause our entire world is based on perceptions.

Sadly the men bit is relevant. A woman might linger after finishing if sitting comfortably but would more likely notice if people with food started appearing and realise its time to move on. Men are more likely to just do their thing and assume it suits everyone else in my experience.

The other couple were exceptionally rude for asking to sit at their incredibly tiny table.

I don't think they were rude to ask, whether or not PP was right to say no. If there were four chairs there, they obviously assumed they were all intended to be sat on.

If the cafe owner had based their business model on maximum possible capacity rather than the comfort of diners, there's not a lot you can do other than find somewhere else (if, indeed, there is somewhere else - which may well have been a factor in their business model....)

If the other couple had been sitting at the tiny table with four chairs there and you had arrived afterwards - with food you'd just bought - how would you have felt if they'd said no? Alternatively, if it was deemed a four-person table (however unrealistically), would you have been willing to pay double for 'under-occupancy', to gain the right to have the other two chairs taken away?

JustFrustrated nice

Sadly the men bit is relevant. A woman might linger after finishing if sitting comfortably but would more likely notice if people with food started appearing and realise its time to move on. Men are more likely to just do their thing and assume it suits everyone else in my experience.

Also, sadly, a lot of women would feel awkward sitting there alone (whether on a big table or a tiny one), even whilst they were very much eating food purchased at the premises.

Guessing they were holding the table for someone who was ordering food.

Fast food restaurants deliberately have uncomfortable seating to discourage people from loitering once they have eaten to keep the turnover of customers moving. Eating at a cafe isn’t the same as booking a restaurant you aren’t entitled to a table for a given period because it suits you. Once you have eaten you really should make an effort to move away to allow for more customers. It’s business and common sense. If you aren’t eating or drinking don’t sit there at the expense of paying customers. A lot of cafes will ask people not eating to not use tables over busy periods ie don’t use the wifi and drink one coffee over two hours. Also don’t take up bigger tables if you don’t need them I know cafes where they seat people to stop people doing this. Cafes aren’t doing anyone a favour they are a business often with very small profit margins so they rely on turnover.

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

Sadly the men bit is relevant. A woman might linger after finishing if sitting comfortably but would more likely notice if people with food started appearing and realise its time to move on. Men are more likely to just do their thing and assume it suits everyone else in my experience.

Also, sadly, a lot of women would feel awkward sitting there alone (whether on a big table or a tiny one), even whilst they were very much eating food purchased at the premises.

Then we as a society need to address this issue. How can we do this? Any ideas?

Reminds me of when I went to a food market with my sister and baby. We were waiting for a bench to eat at and these ladies got up and looked at us to say come sit down (since I had a baby). There were also a couple who were waiting to sit there (maybe just a bit before us) and the guy just aggressively sat down and didn’t even care about me or my sister and baby.. his girlfriend felt embarrassed and was like to him what are you doing and he had a go at her and started yelling at her calling her stupid. What a horrible man! He took the opportunity to sit down so fast and didn’t even think twice about letting us ladies AND a baby sit down.

Maybe we need to teach people at school how to watch out for people who might feel intimidated

They did obviously need to have signs up saying "These tables are for customers consuming food and drink purchased at the cafe" or similar. It gives you the upper hand when rules are clearly displayed and you can then challenge people for deliberately and knowingly breaking them.

If there's no sign there, however obvious you'd assume it would be, some people will argue with you and blame YOU for not making it clear in the first place. YOU will be the baddie for rocking the boat, after they've got themselves all settled in. Also, for various reasons, some people might not be good at picking up social cues and may genuinely not make the connection that the tables are right outside a place serving food, or be otherwise engrossed in their phone/book and not even notice (along with those who would 'claim' not to have noticed).

If MN has taught us anything, it's that many people feel they have a perfect right to anything that isn't currently in use and/or over which they aren't challenged for helping themselves - and it isn't just men or CFs as extreme as Mexican House Thief. They look after themselves, do what suits them and assume that, if nobody stops or challenges them, there can't be a problem.

There are even far more people than normal honest folk would ever think who would do a runner from a restaurant and tell themselves that 'the waitress should have stopped us from walking out if we were expected to pay'.

[quote Melitza]@mainsfed if there had been other cafes on the island then not so rude.
But @HopeWish knew there was nowhere else for these people to go.
Very selfish imo.

Dd and I once asked a couple eating a meal in an outside marquee at a concert if we could sit and have our drinks at their table as nowhere else to go.
They were so gracious and chatted happily to us although we we were all squeezed on a small table.
It’s called being considerate.[/quote]
If I'm paying to eat out at a cafe, I would expect to have a small table for my party of 2, not to have to share with randoms.

The randoms have to wait their turn like everyone else.

It's fine to ask but if the people sitting down say no, you have to accept their decision. That's being considerate!

Given that you can only eat outside at the moment, it did strike me as odd that the restaurant were happy to have three non-consuming customers taking up tables but whatever.

If I’d finished my food and drink, I would probably take a few minutes but I wouldn’t sit there for ages pretending not to notice other customers waiting. Outside eating space is limited with current restrictions and I don’t see what’s wrong with a bit of consideration for others.

Guessing they were holding the table for someone who was ordering food.

Even then, a lot of places will have signs up telling you not to do that. Sometimes, they're quick turnaround places (like McDonalds), where somebody could have finished whilst you were in the queue. However, I'll bet most places that say this do so to stop people from taking the mickey.

If one person grabs a table whilst the other goes to the counter, it's not unreasonable; but you'd get a lot of people arriving at a busy family attraction at 9:30 and sending Grandad straight away to go and sit reading his paper whilst 'saving' a family-sized table ready for lunchtime. Ironically, their rationale would be that 'you have to claim them early, otherwise they're all taken by the time you need them'

Guessing they were holding the table for someone who was ordering food

The OP did say that no-one turned up with food at any of the tables while she was eating hers, so that sounds unlikely.

And in any case, a long lead time for food is even more reason not to bagsy tables before you're ready to eat, because the people who have got their food are likely to have sat down, eaten and be ready to go while you're waiting for your food, if the table hoggers hadn't been stopping them from doing so.

Then we as a society need to address this issue. How can we do this? Any ideas?

We certainly do, but I'm afraid I don't have any simple solutions to offer - it's not a new problem. I suppose it's part of the wider framework that we need to be teaching from nursery upwards that men don't have the monopoly on things - or the right to intimidate lone women - and also that women aren't 'in the way' just by doing something perfectly normal, the same as a man would without anybody questioning it. This needs to be taught to both sexes.

Sorry, I rambled and said pretty much the same as Potato had already said there.

Selfish gits that's what they were, simple. Bet 3 women wouldn't have done the same

And in any case, a long lead time for food is even more reason not to bagsy tables before you're ready to eat, because the people who have got their food are likely to have sat down, eaten and be ready to go while you're waiting for your food, if the table hoggers hadn't been stopping them from doing so.

I can sort of see why people want to be certain that there will be a table available for them before they go ahead and order, but what you say is correct and it does turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy. People do the same thing when rushing to force their way straight into a packed bus, in case they don't get a seat, without troubling themselves to notice that the bulk of the crowd is at the door, waiting to get off first and leave the way clear to plenty of vacant seats!

Surely it depends if they were tables owned by/serviced by the cafe, in which case they should be for customers of the cafe, or whether it was just a bank of tables provided by the venue which just happen to be located close to a takeaway cafe, in which case they are general seating, and it's first come, first served, with no priority based on where you bought your food. It's quite common to see the latter these days - lots of food sellers/food trucks/food stands without their own seating, you just buy your food and find your own spot at the general seating provided by the venue, which can be used by anyone who wishes to sit at a table, regardless of whether they have purchased food or not. The fact that the cafe weren't interested in moving people on suggests it might well have been a bank of general seating, rather than owned/serviced by the cafe.

@mrsm43s Definitely not the case. There was a bank of general seating for takeaways etc across the square but the tables were most definitely served by the cafe. The staff even said as much.

Maybe one of them was waiting for someone, one of them was oblivious to lunch time (maybe in metal or physical pain) and one of them was doing it just to annoy you. Sure they should have sat elsewhere but let the small stuff go.