To despair that people still vote Tory given their track record and outright dishonesty?

[flashbac]

I don't get it. Its depressing. We deserve better than this surely? Why give them the green light? What kind of society do we want? One where liars get our approval?

If you want to win elections, you've got to get people voting for you. That means people who aren't already voting for you - either they're voting for someone else, or not at all.
You're not going to win anyone over by insulting them - they'll just tell you to f* off via the ballot box.
All the stuff deriding "hard-working tax-payers": these people are the the working classes, once the bedrock of the labour party. Labour seems to see the working class as being all about benefits and foodbanks, not about people with jobs who own their own home or aspire to, who want their kids to go to uni and who go abroad for holidays.

@CirclesWithinCircles I didn’t criticise anyone for describing themselves as being a hardworking taxpayer. My beef is with the government for bringing this phrase into popular use. It implies that there are those who aren’t hard working, less deserving, etc.

I’m a hard working tax payer. So what.

No deriding of hard working tax payers! Deriding the politicians that use the phrase. There’s a huge difference.

[quote OldScrappyAndHungry]@CirclesWithinCircles I didn’t criticise anyone for describing themselves as being a hardworking taxpayer. My beef is with the government for bringing this phrase into popular use. It implies that there are those who aren’t hard working, less deserving, etc.

I’m a hard working tax payer. So what.[/quote]
Of course you are implicitly criticising anyone who uses this phrase, by suggesting that they could not string together 3 commonly used words in a certain order without governmental influence.

This sort of word choice criticism is so commonly used by Labour foot soldiers that it has to be something they're actually encouraged to pick up on. So you're actually trying to stop people who pay tax and work from referring to themselves as "hard working taxpayers" by pretending it has some sort of negative connotation.

Generalising hugely, but I doubt the taxpayers of Hartlepool will carefully be amending their word usage to come across as more socially aware.

It's incredibly insulting, controlling and rude.

People are repeatedly explaining why they are uncomfortable with this sort of patronising implicit criticism of their democratic choices and why it puts them off voting for Labour.

The definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again ahd getting the same poor result.

Of course you are implicitly criticising anyone who uses this phrase, by suggesting that they could not string together 3 commonly used words in a certain order without governmental influence.

Yes, I’m sure the frequent use of buzzwords / terms trotted out by the government and the press are just a coincidence. Several million people just woke up one day and started using the word “unelectable” about Labour completely independently of any influence...

Give over.

Coronabeer is right. Labour could try not labelling people. They need to stop thinking their votes will come from one specific sector of society. They need to try to appeal to everyone on the strength of their convictions. Calling people bigots (Gordon Brown) or posh boys (take your pick) is counterproductive. Bigots and posh boys have votes too. Every person they alienate is a vote not won.
The Keir Starmer walk around JLP was absurd. We're in the middle of a pandemic and economic shock, plus Brexit, and Labour are worrying about who bought some wall paper! Well the voters weren't, clearly.

People like Mercy will never get why people don’t vote and think the way they do. So the resort to insults and implying people are thick, led by the media etc.

I am a Londoner but don’t live their any more. I do know it well though. I cannot see what Khan has done as the Mayor but I 100% accept people’s right to vote for him. I would never deride them or indicate one day they will see the light. There are certainly safe seats on both sides, Abbott springs to mind. I am afraid I really don’t understand why she is still in power but someone is voting her.

I could say some people would vote for a brick as long as it was Labour
but I won’t. People have one vote and it’s up to them to decide how to use it. It’s not for me to school people and tell them who they should vote for.

I always thought Brown was ok. The role meant so much to him. He had waited long enough (in his view) and it was always clear he was prickly and impatient. But sometimes we need people in power who will have less talk and more doing.

That comment caught by a turned off microphone (which in the end wasn’t turned off) was very telling. It was a horrible thing to say. That women didn’t say anything racist, she was worried about her town, the town she had lived in all her life. Yet he dismissed her as a bigot. I went right off him them and was glad his turn in power wasn’t what he thought it was going to be.

And yes, in the middle of a pandemic for Starmer to spend precious time wandering around John Lewis one of my favourite stores backfired massively. Maybe it was meant to be funny and there isn’t much to laugh about these days but it really wasn’t.

@Deathgrip

Of course you are implicitly criticising anyone who uses this phrase, by suggesting that they could not string together 3 commonly used words in a certain order without governmental influence.

Yes, I’m sure the frequent use of buzzwords / terms trotted out by the government and the press are just a coincidence. Several million people just woke up one day and started using the word “unelectable” about Labour completely independently of any influence...

Give over.

I mainly write academic papers and even within that, use certain popular phrases from time to time, whilst being aware why we are doing so and in what ways it might be excusable shorthand. To suggest to people that they use certain English words only because they are suggested by government is incredibly insulting.

Lets be specific - the words objected to were three in total and they were "hard working taxpayers". Labour supporters have repeatedly objected to people using this combination of common English words and suggested it is some form of sophisticated government brainwashing, yet these are words that concisely depict the traditional Labour vote! So from a psychological perspective, this sends a message to potential Labour voters that something has changed, there is something wrong with describing yourself as either hard working, or tax paying or a combination thereof, but theres no logical explanation as to why this is, other than some footballers also pay tax as do some rich people.

So instead of sending a subtle suggestive signal to get them on their side, you send out a rather clearer message that Labour are unreliable, controlling and more interested in splitting hairs than representing hard working people. Labour is no longer for people who identify as hard working or as taxpayers. Labour is for someone else, although its not entirely sure whom.

And then even more stupidly, you create the impression that you think "several million people" are stupid or gullible. Why would you even want to send that message out to potential voters?

This desire to police peoples' use of everyday language is far too controlling and is much more concerning than the words or phrases themselves. And you don't need to be any kind of academic to know that.

And why the little "Give over" at the end - is that meant to be make me think I'm not being cool enough or something?

I'm going to repeat this again - insulting people is no way to get people to vote for you. Labour keeps losing votes and you are contributing to it.

I can't actually believe the way some Labour supporters on here are speaking to people. I can only assume that they have become so used to insulting people that they no longer realise how badly it comes across.

@CirclesWithinCircles I’m not criticising the individuals who use it. I’m criticising the politicians. I’m not entirely sure why you’re so deliberately trying to miss that fairly obvious point?

@Moonstone1234

I always thought Brown was ok. The role meant so much to him. He had waited long enough (in his view) and it was always clear he was prickly and impatient. But sometimes we need people in power who will have less talk and more doing.

That comment caught by a turned off microphone (which in the end wasn’t turned off) was very telling. It was a horrible thing to say. That women didn’t say anything racist, she was worried about her town, the town she had lived in all her life. Yet he dismissed her as a bigot. I went right off him them and was glad his turn in power wasn’t what he thought it was going to be.

And yes, in the middle of a pandemic for Starmer to spend precious time wandering around John Lewis one of my favourite stores backfired massively. Maybe it was meant to be funny and there isn’t much to laugh about these days but it really wasn’t.

Not a fan. Not entirely because he took 10 years to do a phd on the History of the Labour Party in Scotland while partying as a student at the taxpayer's expense yet only had a couple of short and one part time jobs before becoming an MP.

No, its because he displayed an arrogant disregard for local issues. A fabulous modern hospital was built in the large and expanding town of Dunfermline, in his constituency. My mother started her cancer treatment there. Like many people, when the Labour government decided to close most of its facilities and modernise the crumbling Victorian hospital in Kirkcaldy, miles away instead, she was severely inconvenienced by having to travel for hours on public transport for her cancer treatment. It caused her a lot of pain and distress.

I remember many letters about this in local newspapers at the time, and Gordon Brown, the local MP, steadfastly refused to comment or get involved.

I personally think that lost Labour a lot of votes and not just in the local constituency, and this explains why Labour, who relatively recently had an almost guaranteed multi generational vote in many parts of Scotland, are now struggling to hold their place as a third party there. They were also constantly mired in sleaze - there was all sorts of funny business covered up in South Lanarkshire about awarding of contracts and many Labour controlled local authorities were run as personal money making machines for Labour supporters, from giving them unfeasibly well paid jobs, to grants of planning permission, towards strange licensing conditions favouring certain companies.

And then there was repeated, recurring comment used to describe Gordon Brown, "he's a brilliant man" - why, exactly? Most people with a phd have multiple publications. He doesn't. I always thought it was because he was a bit of an under-achiever in the real world of work, so a fantasy aura of brilliance had to be created around him to compensate for that.

Personally, I don't give a fuck who paid for the bloody wallpaper. It's just not top of my priority list. What impressed me was that Brexit was done eventually, and Boris' handling of the vaccination program has been nothing short of masterful.

Almost everyone these days is working class. I don't know anyone who can live on unearned income.

And U.K. job profiles have changed. There are far fewer manual jobs and far more skilled/graduate roles.
So if Labour want to win in the future, they have to appeal to the 50% of the population who are graduates and professionals.

There aren't enough manual workers left in heavy industry to get them elected

And that means a different conversation, with an educated aspirational electorate who want different things and won't take being patronised.

Labour has to change!

The conservatives worked with the NHS to get the vaccine roll out we have now. People will not believe that they want to dismantle it after this.
That's one argument labour haven't got.
I can't think of anyone to take over the leadership of the LP that would appeal to people as Boris Johnson seems to. It's baffling to me, but it works for the tories.
It's a tough call and no wonder Sir Kier Starmer looked downbeat.
I feel they have a decade in the wilderness at least.

Hi circleswithincircles. Lots of people from normal backgrounds get into Oxford which is how it should be. Johnson all his life has been privileged and lazy and has been richly rewarded for this (don’t think a working class scouser with numerous children he won’t admit to would get such an easy ride to be PM...) Starmer worked hard all his life from unprivileged background. Fine for you to say you and others will only vote for Labour if the person sounds northern and working class and otherwise you prefer lazy old etonians because they are in your mind identical- but just own the message that we tell our children that working hard makes you privileged and unelectable if you are from London and born poor - but fine to vote for you if you are born with a silver spoon in your mouth. Am sure it is true electorally but guess something you don’t want to tell the kids!

@the80sweregreat

I agree with you, sadly, and I have no time for the Tories and definitely not for Boris.

It took two terms for Neil Kinnock to turn the Labour Party’s fortunes around after the 1983 debacle and even then they narrowly lost the 1992 election. It was only then that the stage was set for Tony Blair to lead them into power.

The Tory Party then had William Hague, Ian Duncan Smith and then Michael Howard as leaders who failed to win power. Then finally David Cameron succeeded.

My point is that it takes time after a disastrous defeat for a political party to make itself electable again. It will be a long haul for the Labour Party to turn this around whoever the leader is.

The thing about Boris is that people are forgiving of him

He resonates with everyone including the working classes.
Lots of people call him Boris as though they know him better than they do. That is quite an achievement.

He has a interesting personal life. Some people would call it colourful but who on here can honestly say they are squeaky clean on everything in their lives. I certainly am not. Does being married (no living together!) for years with 2.5 children make you a better leader. Boris can be ruthless. He went after Brexit and even if you didn’t agree with it you certainly understood what he wanted. LP were flip flopping around and didn’t seem to know what they stood for. Offering a second referendum was a massive mistake. I wasn’t going to change my mind. I was grabbed by a lady on the street campaigning for the People’s Vote. She asked me to sign her petition. Maybe I just looked like I was someone who would want one. I told her I have voted leave, she dropped my arm and tried to back away but I said for feedback for the petition I don’t appreciate being told I was wrong last time and here was my chance to see the light.

Keith Vaz comes to mind when we talk about sleazy. And wasn’t Hartlepool only available because the previous Labour MP had resigned due to some sleazy allegations against them.

I feel regardless of the party as long as you are clear on what you believe in, with sensible reasoning you will get people to listen to you. Angela Rayner looks like she is completely out of her depth. She defended Corbyn time and time again and she and Lisa Nandy should not be confused as to what are safe women spaces and why we would want them.

@Dg390

Hi circleswithincircles. Lots of people from normal backgrounds get into Oxford which is how it should be. Johnson all his life has been privileged and lazy and has been richly rewarded for this (don’t think a working class scouser with numerous children he won’t admit to would get such an easy ride to be PM...) Starmer worked hard all his life from unprivileged background. Fine for you to say you and others will only vote for Labour if the person sounds northern and working class and otherwise you prefer lazy old etonians because they are in your mind identical- but just own the message that we tell our children that working hard makes you privileged and unelectable if you are from London and born poor - but fine to vote for you if you are born with a silver spoon in your mouth. Am sure it is true electorally but guess something you don’t want to tell the kids!

Here in northern Scotland, there are quite a few Eton educated people and not many Surrey educated London dwelling barristers who have inherited land in Surrey.

Keir Starmer might be hard working, but he's certainly privileged. We all know that Boris has a bit of an Eton sheen but comes from a relatively recent part immigrant background. He's a good PR man but he is also good at getting other people to pay attention to the detail in a way that a lot of Labour politicians and their supporters are missing.

Just because I'm not from Surrey doesn't mean I believe in stereotypes, even the wildly inaccurate assumptive stereotypes that you have somewhat amusingly made about me - and not everyone from the north is from the north of England - thats actually several hundreds of miles to the south of where I am.

I'm a swing voter. I've voted Labour, Lib Dem, and Green. If I lived in outside of England, I'd likely vote SNP, Plaid Cymru, or Sinn Fein. I even have the potential to vote Conservative if the manifesto was good and I trusted the leaders.

That said, I would never consider voting in this piece of shit government we currently have. Useless, self-service cunts, the lot of them. People argue that Labour would be worse, but at least Labour understand that Boris Johnson is a joke of a leader.

I’ve known people have different political opinions from me all my life and quite understand it (though obviously believe they are wrong in their political analysis). This isn’t about that. Of course people hold Conservative views. The question here is why would they vote for a lying, cheating set of scoundrels? They have broken laws, lied to the queen, lied to the electorate and are threatening the very existence of the union. Not what a believer in the Conservative and Unionist Party would like, I’d have thought.
‘No viable alternative’ doesn’t work either. They could just not vote, or spoil their ballot paper. Instead, they choose to green light the lying and cheating. That’s what I don’t understand.

Johnson makes politics interesting for those people who normally wouldn't bother. He inspires both loathing and admiration, not many are neutral.
It was the same with Thatcher, and she was PM for 11 years.

BJ is unlikely to be lazy (and it is pretty hard to get into Eton too). Leaving at aside the points above about Labou trying to control what working class people say and do smacks so much of George Orwell and 1984 that the electorate are sensibly against it. They want to call a spade a spade and Labour criticising people for using phrases like hard working tax payer is never going to get Labour elected as most people to whom they need to appeal are hard working tax payers.

Eg most voted of left and right supported the Tory two children benefits policy because most hard working tax payers only have the number of children they can afford. Labour does not really understand aspirational voters including the 50% of people now who are graduates.

Labour says a lot of things which aren't true about the Conservatives but it is water off a duck's back to us.

Sadly there is no viable alternative for me. Starmer looked like he had possibilities but their attitude to females has killed that one off - same with Lib Dem's. I'm also in the higher wage bracket so I will admit there is some self preservation here - particularly when Corbin was in charge. A centrist labour government who can understand the needs of people with natural vaginas would get my vote but they don't exist

It would be quicker to list the people Labour does still appeal to, than those who don't:

• trans people
• some benefits claimants, but not all of them
• non-Rolex wearers (fake Rolex wearers are undecided/swing voters)
• communists
• actors, especially those living abroad
• pop singers
• white men who don't live in big houses
• people who have very strong social consciences and who like to tell other people that theres are lacking
• people who don't like Eton educated people

Have I missed out anyone?

@MarinPrime I weep at the idea that anyone admires Johnson. He is so far beyond odious. As as a PP said, the kind of man who’d be annihilated on here if his wife posted about his behaviour.

But apparently the behaviour we despise in a husband is to be admired in our prime minister.

Desperate.