To despair that people still vote Tory given their track record and outright dishonesty?

[flashbac]

I don't get it. Its depressing. We deserve better than this surely? Why give them the green light? What kind of society do we want? One where liars get our approval?

No one has been negative about the vaccine success - it’s been great. I’m just trying out it wasn’t because of Brexit that it happened.

It was a risk going outside of the joint purchasing arrangement. I wasn’t actually calling for it at the time. I had no details about it. If it looked like a slow cumbersome thing that it is then I would have advised not joining it. Why didn’t more countries do so? Not sure...

The uk has a great science tradition which put us ahead with Oxford university. Incidentally much of this money behind this pre established scientific expertise was European which we have now lost access too.

Sorry about the typos - kids have got up! Pointing out not trying out

@Marcydarcy7867

No one has been negative about the vaccine success - it’s been great. I’m just trying out it wasn’t because of Brexit that it happened.

It was a risk going outside of the joint purchasing arrangement. I wasn’t actually calling for it at the time. I had no details about it. If it looked like a slow cumbersome thing that it is then I would have advised not joining it. Why didn’t more countries do so? Not sure...

The uk has a great science tradition which put us ahead with Oxford university. Incidentally much of this money behind this pre established scientific expertise was European which we have now lost access too.

Perhaps not you but definitely on here.

Re Brexit it’s hard to know how much the political context meant we forged our own path.

It’s easily a factor.

I agree brexit was likely a factor that political made it easier for us to go our own way.

Short memories folks. The mess of schools, Tory mates spending, rule breaking by travelling, lies, delays in locking down, short notice of changes, ...if it wasn't so sad and serious it would be funny.

All of that pales into insignificance when we've got a great vaccination program

@DiddlyWiddly

I was surprised at how well it was handled I agree, out of a population of 66 million odd, 130,000 is absolutely tiny. It’s not even half of one percent. Every death is of course horrific, but it could be so much worse.

...not sure the families and friends of 130k covid victims would agree. That is also not factoring in the huge number of people that are suffering long Covid.

The vaccination of millions is a success...but one win on top of huge death rates..food banks.. hungry children..and sleaze...really?

Johnson cares about power and his on legacy...has a terrible history of lying and self interest.
I struggle to understand how people that the Tories would walk all over in a heart beat vote for them.

I do also agree that Labour have lost their way. Starmmer regularly makes Johnson look at fool at PMQ's..but is this shown in the news or right wing papers..no. He took the high moral ground of trying not to attack the Tories during a pandemic and didn't make enough of the issues that led to the highest (excess) death rate: poverty, underfunding ..slow decision making...lack of attendance to COBR meetings......

It's no coincidence that the only time Labour has formed a government in the past 42 years was when they became centrist and appealed to a majority. If you look at the number of votes cast, there is a clear majority for left leaning and centrist parties. Sadly though, the vote is split, which will always favour the tories unless there is electoral reform. We are therefore essentially living in an elected dictatorship. So the issue is not so much about people voting in swathes for dishonesty and greed (which I agree is utterly depressing) it's about the inability of our progressive parties to work together for the common good. Without PR,, which isn't going to happen while the tories are in power and it supports their continued existence, there needs to be a progressive alliance.

And I say that as a lifelong Labour voter who is sick to death of the cannibalistic tendencies of the Labour Party. The current state of affairs is utterly depressing, this is not democracy.

Boris literally laughs at the people in northern /middle England (John Lewis?! God no not for me too common.. food vouchers so people can feed their hungry kids during the school holidays whilst out of work - god no I want the £2 million it would cost to give to my Uber rich already mate...) whilst at the same time pretending to be their man.

That’s why people despair/can’t understand it

I’d love for David miliband to come back and lead labour into a more centerist position

Just saw this from Circleswithincirclds
Corbyn and Keir Starmer are both seen as posh and privileged by many working class voters, because they are, so it makes little sense when Labour supporters criticise Boris for being posh. No one really cares whether someone is educated in an exclusive private school in Surrey or grows up in a Shropshire Manor School, or at Eton.“

So if I have this right as a parenting site the message you and others believe we should tell children is that these two things are identically posh
“Working class background, state school, no connections, find a professional job and rise to the top entirely on your own merits and be honoured for this”
“Sent to Eton as your parents are rich where even eton says you are one of their most entitled pupils ever; Eton works out how to get you into Oxford; get series of jobs through your connections and be fired for lieing from them; be massively in personal debt as you can’t stay within your massive income “
The first is Starmer and the second is Johnson and they are to you equally posh?
The people on here who believe this should be on the parenting sections telling everyone to send their kids to private schools - and also that we should tell our kids that hard work is irrelevant and you should expect to be be mocked if you succeed because being rich as a child is just as good.
It is a valid view if you think starmer and Johnson are both posh so surely you want to tell our children that!

Marcy - it’s YOU that doesn’t understand it I am afraid. The furlough scheme and the Bounce Back loan helped millions. But do keep wringing your hands and wondering why people won’t vote for Labour.

This morning I heard someone from Labour being asked why they weren’t listening to their previous supporters and he answered ‘yes, but’. Your supporters are everything there is no but.....

@Marcydarcy7867

TomPinch - Brexit has nothing to do with the vaccine success. We could have always done the deal with AZ and also always opted out of the joint procurement programme. We didn’t need to be out of the EU to do this. Conflating Brexit with vaccine success is Tory propaganda and they’ve been success with it. Don’t fall for their lies. The AZ jab would still have been developed if we were in the EU. We would have still thrown money at the vaccines not joined the EU purchasing scheme. We’ve never done a joint purchasing scheme with the EU even when we were in it that I can think of!

I dealt with this specifically in my last post. I gave my reasons why the UK would not have opted out even though it could have done so.

I don't live in the UK. I don't live in the EU. This has given me a certain perspective on all this, and it doesn't depend on Tory lies. I

I do smile when people say if only Milliband was standing and on occasions John Smith who died years ago.

In the run up to the last election people on here were stating Starmer would walk it if he was the leader instead of Corbyn. It’s not as easy as it looks and be careful what you wish for. Starmer is better than Corbyn but he has no real ideas. Just nit picks or sits on the fence.

Look how well their manifesto went for Labour. They were spraying money all over the place to every cause they could think, free broadband, no student fees, Waspi women and people thought hang on - who is going to pay for all of this. Offering free broadband would have wiped out 600 plus third party provider but McDonnell didn’t care. Let’s have state everything

Marcy I agree re David M

He’s solid, centrist and could be optimistic

Hit post too soon..

I was going to add that I do think Johnson is a very poor PM regardless of my points above.

Conservative or Green, that’s me

At least some votes are because people who would have historically aligned with Labour feel that they don't represent them anymore, and I know there's the lib dems, but in reality Labour and cons are the main 2; if you don't vote for one you vote for the other. Imo Labour really need to reevaluate what they want to stand for from the ground up, and not just switch out leaders periodically who have no chance in winning people back.

I have zero idea why anyone would vote Conservative in England They could see Italy Spain our European neighbours in meltdown yet stood by saying ridiculous things just wash your hands! Awarded millions of pounds contracts to cronies and then shafted the nurses for a pay increase . Most nurses were on their knees working through a pandemic the likes of which we have never seen. Some nurses I know even lived in hotels away from family at the worst of it when they were unvaccinated, as they were so terrified they would bring it home. Yet he gave them the most measly amount of pay rise he could. The man is a horror.
Unfortunately many in Scotland have had to vote Tory to keep SNP from getting a majority they have had 14 years and done zero and are dangerously close to breaking the union plunging us all into a financial mess.
It is with a heavy heart we have had to do this, but Labour should be screaming from the roof tops the mistakes this govt has made!
Instead we got a picture of Starmer looking at wallpaper! Lovely man, worked hard to make his way up through life, but we need someone with the ability to give this selfish irresponsible cronyist government a political kicking.

I would love to see a strong Opposition but Starmer has had 1.5 years to get it together but also Labour had what 3-4 years to get their message across. So in total let’s say 5 years... and they have just got a stuffing.

It’s not going well.

@Dg390

Just saw this from Circleswithincirclds Corbyn and Keir Starmer are both seen as posh and privileged by many working class voters, because they are, so it makes little sense when Labour supporters criticise Boris for being posh. No one really cares whether someone is educated in an exclusive private school in Surrey or grows up in a Shropshire Manor School, or at Eton.“

So if I have this right as a parenting site the message you and others believe we should tell children is that these two things are identically posh
“Working class background, state school, no connections, find a professional job and rise to the top entirely on your own merits and be honoured for this”
“Sent to Eton as your parents are rich where even eton says you are one of their most entitled pupils ever; Eton works out how to get you into Oxford; get series of jobs through your connections and be fired for lieing from them; be massively in personal debt as you can’t stay within your massive income “
The first is Starmer and the second is Johnson and they are to you equally posh?
The people on here who believe this should be on the parenting sections telling everyone to send their kids to private schools - and also that we should tell our kids that hard work is irrelevant and you should expect to be be mocked if you succeed because being rich as a child is just as good.
It is a valid view if you think starmer and Johnson are both posh so surely you want to tell our children that!

I'm not telling you to tell your children anything - what a ridiculous thing to say!

What I am saying is that in the North of Scotland where I live, Labour presenting a Surrey born and raised privately educated landowner as a working class contrast to an Eton educated man isn't going to wash.

Him and Corbyn simply come across as posh boys, privileged and wealthy enough to have political careers rather than real jobs.

It's simply not plausible and undermines their entire argument.

Equally, your comment about oxford is ridiculous. I know several people there, all of whom went to state schools. My uncle went to Cambridge from a state school. It's perfectly accessible for postgrads. How patronising to suggest it's not.

Presenting privileged men as champions of the working classes simply comes across as dishonest ab initio.

@Moonstone1234

I would love to see a strong Opposition but Starmer has had 1.5 years to get it together but also Labour had what 3-4 years to get their message across. So in total let’s say 5 years... and they have just got a stuffing.

It’s not going well.

Yes they need to get back to their roots. I think think feel the issues they seem to be focusing on are 'what the people want', but evidently they don't. If they looked back to manifestos of a few decades back they'd probably be able to remind themselves what the Labour Party allegedly stands for, and make real steps towards being a credible opposition.

@awaynboilyurheid

I have zero idea why anyone would vote Conservative in England They could see Italy Spain our European neighbours in meltdown yet stood by saying ridiculous things just wash your hands! Awarded millions of pounds contracts to cronies and then shafted the nurses for a pay increase . Most nurses were on their knees working through a pandemic the likes of which we have never seen. Some nurses I know even lived in hotels away from family at the worst of it when they were unvaccinated, as they were so terrified they would bring it home. Yet he gave them the most measly amount of pay rise he could. The man is a horror. Unfortunately many in Scotland have had to vote Tory to keep SNP from getting a majority they have had 14 years and done zero and are dangerously close to breaking the union plunging us all into a financial mess. It is with a heavy heart we have had to do this, but Labour should be screaming from the roof tops the mistakes this govt has made! Instead we got a picture of Starmer looking at wallpaper! Lovely man, worked hard to make his way up through life, but we need someone with the ability to give this selfish irresponsible cronyist government a political kicking.

"made his way up through life" are you serious? Privately educated in Surrey, home counties landowner, granted he actually had a proper career which, in the case of Labour leaders has been notable by its absence since Blair. But has working for a living really become that unusual within labour that you say this?

Keir Starmer isn't a bad leader at all. But what does he have to lead? Its the rest of the Labour Party and the constant negative politicking and hectoring of anyone who votes for anyone else that is putting people off.

in reality Labour and cons are the main 2; if you don't vote for one you vote for the other.

"I don't want a burglar in my house, so I'll invite an arsonist in to keep him out." Not how a sensible person thinks.

People saying Starmer has had 1.5 years to get it together miss the point. The Labour Party is more divided than ever. He's leading a party that's eating itself from within. People like Diane Abbot still hectoring from the sidelines saying we need radical policies and someone like Corbyn. It's what made Labour unelectable before and unpalatable for many now. Like him or loathe him, the 3 things that Blair did to great effect was 1. Create policies that made Labour more appealing to middle England 2. Employ an unbeatable communications strategist in Campbell who worked the Tory press like no Labour Party strategist before him and 3. Unite his party for long enough to gain power and kept power long enough to make real changes. He always acted like a statesman, long before he was elected. I know a lot of the left still hate him today, but Labour would have always been in political oblivion were it not for him.

The British people are controlled by the media and the torys control the vast majority of the media