Children apologising: who IBU in this situation?

[FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop]

Disclaimer: I’m neither family in this but my friend is.

A year 2 (age 7) girl gets shoved in the playground by a boy when they were playing cops and robbers. This really upsets her but she's not forthcoming with standing up for herself. When she gets home, because she knows the boy lives around the corner, she gets her (6ft tall and stocky - this is relevant) dad to take her to his house so she can knock on the door and ask him to apologise. The boy’s mum is a widow, an older mum (early 50’s) and it’s just the two of them living there. The dad/family of the girl know this.

When the girl and her dad arrive and say Thomas shoved her today and they’d like him to come to the door and apologise, Thomas’ mum says no because “it’s just what happens when children play sometimes they get shoved” and that the dad was out of order to come round as it’s intimidating for her living on her own to have an unexpected and ‘burly’ man knock on her door making demands.

The family of the girl say they think this is out of order and an apology should have been given, they’re trying to teach their daughter to stand up for herself especially when it comes to boys being rough and crossing physical boundaries.

Who is in the right?

"Big burly blokes, IMO, no matter how nice they should be aware of how they come across especially to women. It may not be their fault they're tall but they should maybe think twice about how it looks when they go to gang up on someone"

As a big burly bloke myself, what is it I need to do? I take care to be friendly and polite to all people as a rule.

There is nothing in the OP to indicate that the dad was anything but friendly or polite & I am quite surprised that - beyond the question of whether or not an apology was called for or not and whether or not this should have discussed via the school - the act of talking to a woman can be seen as intimidation in and of itself. I don't really take my appearance into account - big middle aged normal dad - when talking to others but should I - and how?

As a big burly bloke myself, what is it I need to do?

Don't confront lone women on their doorstep who you have no business confronting.

No one is saying burly men shouldn't speak to anyone.

I am quite surprised that - beyond the question of whether or not an apology was called for or not and whether or not this should have discussed via the school - the act of talking to a woman can be seen as intimidation in and of itself

It's called male privilege - the comfort of never being intimidated by the opposite sex. Maybe ask women how they feel about men approaching them? Most men don't have a clue how intimidating this is, and that's a problem.

Don't just assume you don't have to adjust your behaviour at all because you don't find yourself intimidating.

What happens in school is dealt with in school. Parents should leave well alone.

However, if my son or daughter came home and told me they got shoved by accident in the playground I'd just say "that's a shame" and move on. In what world would you make a fuss like this? It would be different if it were deliberate but presumably then she would have told a member of staff at the time.

I was very honest, she said she saw how it could be intimidating but they like to take any opportunity to help their DD stand up for herself because she's extremely over sensitive. I did say getting your dad to fight your battles isn't really a great lesson.

What about teaching your DD empathy for a child that has recently lost a parent and a wife that has lost a husband? Clearly the DD isn't overly sensitive to the needs of others.

I'm not saying the boy shouldn't be taught that shoving isn't ok (if that's what really happened - who knows, the school need to be involved) but going to his house is inappropriate in normal circumstances but doubly so when it's a 7 year old WHO'S DAD HAS RECENTLY DIED!!!!!

Horrendous people, utterly horrendous.

Don't confront lone women on their doorstep who you have no business confronting.

“Confront” is very pejorative. Do big burly blokes just let everything pass in case they are accused of bullying?

OH will remind anyone he sees parking in a blue badge space without a blue badge, that they shouldn’t park there. He is polite, respectful but should he not do so if it is a small woman in their 50s who may or may not be widowed, in case he is accused of bullying?

"It's called male privilege - the comfort of never being intimidated by the opposite sex. Maybe ask women how they feel about men approaching them? Most men don't have a clue how intimidating this is, and that's a problem."

OK, fair enough - I've always seen that in the context of actually acting intimidating or in the course of a confrontation. But I've never thought about it in terms of being intimidating even in the course of a normal/friendly interaction. I'll have a think :)

(And I would class speaking to another parent about kids as a normal parent-to-parent interaction (rather than a confrontation), but that may be different here (I'm not in the UK))

What about teaching your DD empathy for a child that has recently lost a parent and a wife that has lost a husband?

How much empathy is a small girl expected to have when they are pushed over by a boy?

@bongsuhan

"Big burly blokes, IMO, no matter how nice they should be aware of how they come across especially to women. It may not be their fault they're tall but they should maybe think twice about how it looks when they go to gang up on someone"

As a big burly bloke myself, what is it I need to do? I take care to be friendly and polite to all people as a rule.

There is nothing in the OP to indicate that the dad was anything but friendly or polite & I am quite surprised that - beyond the question of whether or not an apology was called for or not and whether or not this should have discussed via the school - the act of talking to a woman can be seen as intimidation in and of itself. I don't really take my appearance into account - big middle aged normal dad - when talking to others but should I - and how?

A strange man turning up on my doorstep demanding an apology for an incident I probably knew nothing about, would cause my adrenaline to spike, my breathing rate would increase, my tension would be raised and I would feel very cornered. That's called a fear response and women feel stuff like that on a daily basis when dealing with unknown men in unwanted or unexpected situations.

I'm no shrinking violet but that's still what happens to my body if I'm out in those types of situations.

Because I have no idea if that man feels entitled to force the issue or not, and it puts me slap bang in fight or flight mode.

Lots of men appear perfectly polite until you say 'no'.

Don't turn up, uninvited to a woman's house and do what this guy did.

Just don't. It appears threatening, creates unnecessary fear and anxiety and can be completely avoided by dealing with school directly.

The same goes if a woman were to turn up, but I'd be less anxious.

Hope that helps.

@bongsuhan

"Big burly blokes, IMO, no matter how nice they should be aware of how they come across especially to women. It may not be their fault they're tall but they should maybe think twice about how it looks when they go to gang up on someone"

As a big burly bloke myself, what is it I need to do? I take care to be friendly and polite to all people as a rule.

There is nothing in the OP to indicate that the dad was anything but friendly or polite & I am quite surprised that - beyond the question of whether or not an apology was called for or not and whether or not this should have discussed via the school - the act of talking to a woman can be seen as intimidation in and of itself. I don't really take my appearance into account - big middle aged normal dad - when talking to others but should I - and how?

Can you really not see how a large bloke turning up unexpectedly on the doorstep to complain about something could be intimidating?

I’m surprised by that. My DH is 6’5 and is well aware that his stature can be intimidating. DS1 is only 21 and is aware of it.

Your friend and her husband are idiots. But you know that. Teaching their daughter that any kind of shoving is not OK and what SHE can do about it is great. Teaching her that DADDY will sort out all her problems is not. Listening to her side of any school problems is great, assuming that there is no other side is not. Going to a child's home is just weird. You said they're nice people- but this really wasn't a nice, well thought out reaction. I don't think I'd be friends with them for much longer.

@bongsuhan

"It's called male privilege - the comfort of never being intimidated by the opposite sex. Maybe ask women how they feel about men approaching them? Most men don't have a clue how intimidating this is, and that's a problem."

OK, fair enough - I've always seen that in the context of actually acting intimidating or in the course of a confrontation. But I've never thought about it in terms of being intimidating even in the course of a normal/friendly interaction. I'll have a think :)

(And I would class speaking to another parent about kids as a normal parent-to-parent interaction (rather than a confrontation), but that may be different here (I'm not in the UK))

Not arriving on her doorstep though, her not knowing the man or how he knew where she lived, those factors alone make it intimidating.

I’m not having this crap about it was wrong because he was a big burly bloke, it was wrong because it was not the right thing to do and had the mother gone round it would still be wrong and the boys mum would have been well within her rights to report it.

would you send him round to a widowed mother's house to demand an apology?

Again "demand" is pejorative. But yes, if an apology was required, he would seek it out. Do widows have an out from having any responsibility. Did the guy die last week? How long does her absolution from responsibility last?

Big burly blokes, IMO, no matter how nice they should be aware of how they come across especially to women. It may not be their fault they're tall but they should maybe think twice about how it looks when they go to gang up on someone

Who ganged up on who? It was he alone. From what you say there was no shouting or swearing or ranting or bullying - other than the fact he is a big built man. Sure, OH is aware of his presence, but he shouldn't be expected never to stand up for himself because other people assume at over 6ft he is a bully. To be honest, this woman would feel far more intimidated by me if her kid had pushed mine over.

I’m not having this crap about it was wrong because he was a big burly bloke, it was wrong because it was not the right thing to do and had the mother gone round it would still be wrong and the boys mum would have been well within her rights to report it.

The fact OP mentioned him being a big burly bloke makes it clear she believes this is a factor in whether or not he should have done it.

I agree that talking to the school would be preferable in any case, but that's not the question OP is asking.

@DishingOutDone

I’m not having this crap about it was wrong because he was a big burly bloke, it was wrong because it was not the right thing to do and had the mother gone round it would still be wrong and the boys mum would have been well within her rights to report it.

It would still have been nonsense to do it, but it was more wrong that the most physically intimidating person was the one who went.

Especially as it wasn’t just that he happened to be the only one home at the time.

@poppycat10

What happens in school is dealt with in school. Parents should leave well alone.

However, if my son or daughter came home and told me they got shoved by accident in the playground I'd just say "that's a shame" and move on. In what world would you make a fuss like this? It would be different if it were deliberate but presumably then she would have told a member of staff at the time.

I'm the same, I wouldn't even raise it with the school. I'd secretly hope my child would toughen up a bit too

To be honest, this woman would feel far more intimidated by me if her kid had pushed mine over.

And there we have it. Bad parenting.

Thankfully most parents know to sort things like this out through the school and have no desire to go round intimidating others. Especially over a couple of 7 year olds.

To be honest, this woman would feel far more intimidated by me if her kid had pushed mine over.

But do you not think this boy has a right to respond to the accusation before being told he has to apologise? If a boy and his mother knocked on your door saying your daughter shoved her son during a game of cops and robbers and she needs to get down here and apologise to him, would you say OK then and call her down and tell her to apologise or would you say you will need to talk to your daughter first to find out her version of events?

@MintyMabel did you read the part that said the girl had insisted that her dad goes with her to see the boy's mother. Not her mum, who had originally offered? That says more about who's rattling whose chain here. Plus the OP has said the girl has form for saying someone did something that they didn't. Not saying that's the case here, but the father isn't 'pushing back' against anything. He's being wrapped around a little girl's finger and, had I been her mum agreeing with that going around would be a good idea, I'd have insisted I did it, not dad. Because kids don't get to choose who deals with their problems. Parents do that.

@MintyMabel

Don't confront lone women on their doorstep who you have no business confronting.

“Confront” is very pejorative. Do big burly blokes just let everything pass in case they are accused of bullying?

OH will remind anyone he sees parking in a blue badge space without a blue badge, that they shouldn’t park there. He is polite, respectful but should he not do so if it is a small woman in their 50s who may or may not be widowed, in case he is accused of bullying?

TBH I don't think anybody should be acting like some sort of public unofficial policeman towards others. No one likes a busybody. Also they may have forgotten to display their badge. There was a thread not too long about about this and because it's so difficult to get a blue badge some posters said they park in the spaces when taking elderly relatives who need to space and the closeness to the shop when there were ample spaces available. I can't argue with that myself TBH

But yes, in this. I’m not sure there was anything to sort out. It sounds like an accident whilst playing. If the girl didn’t need any first aid, there’s nothing to say. I’m sure the school regularly tell kids to be careful of others when playing, but accidents happen.

@MintyMabel

But yes, if an apology was required, he would seek it out.

Apologies are never "required" - they are wanted. And he and you need to learn that you can't always get what you want.

@MintyMabel

What about teaching your DD empathy for a child that has recently lost a parent and a wife that has lost a husband?

How much empathy is a small girl expected to have when they are pushed over by a boy?

Well the answer is not "no empathy".

I've dealt with pupils who've recently lost parents and it's truly heartbreaking. They don't always behave terribly well because, well anger is part of the grieving process. So if a 14yo boy whose mum died last month is churlish and cheeky, I tend to let it go because I don't see a slight on me as a reason to suspend my empathy.

Its the bloody male privilege again here; what women come to expect
Wrong to harass a bereaved mum or any woman. I wonder what would have if a male relative had answered the door to him.
Agree if it happened at school, far better for school to deal with.
For what it's worth I took a problem into school as I wasn't happy: school dealt with it but the mum stormed over to me in the playground, ranting at how cruel my child was and how I should have discussed it with as her child was ' distraught and devastated' at the teacher having to speak to him (she spoke to both children and thought it sorted)
Sometimes you can't win 😯

Haven't RTFT, but I don't believe for a minute a seven-year-old would come home from school demanding that her dad accompanies her to the house of another kid in her class to force an apology. More like she mentioned it and the dad decided to go round their all guns blazing. I'm with the mum on this one, it was out of order.